A ton of maybe stupid questions

[RyanM]

I am definitely going to be buying a black powder revolver at some point in the future, but until then, there's a ton I want to know. Maybe dumb stuff, but I haven't found the info by searching, or anywhere else. And I'm probably not going to be able to find out for myself until I'm out of college.

1. I've read on here that it's physically impossible to blow up a modern repro black powder revolver, no matter how much powder you manage to stuff in it, but accuracy suffers. Does the same go for overloading with the modern BP substitutes, like 777?

2. How about a rundown of all the powder brands, and the modern substitutes? Price, power, accuracy, reliability of ignition, fouling, smoke, flame, smell, everything. Haven't seen much consolodated data on that.

3. How powerful is a round be that's just shot out of the cylinder, no barrel? For instance, if I get a chain fire which is also a hang fire, then holster the gun (right before that second shot goes off), or if I drop a loaded cylinder just so, that something hits a percussion cap and it's pointed at me, then how long would I be staying at the hospital?

4. What's the best way to load buck-and-ball (for single-shot muzzleloaders mostly)? Similarly, what's the best way to load buckshot? I remember reading about .38 SPL buck-and-ball loads in some magazine article, that were made by putting a cardboard wad over the powder, then shot, then a 000 buckshot for the ball. I also remember seeing a picture of an old, paper-cartridge (not the kind with brass) buckshot load for muzzleloaders, and each individual shot was wrapped up, then 9 of the wrapped shots in a patch, with strings tied in between the "tiers" of shot to keep them nice and seperate, I guess to control the pattern?

5. How much of a difference is there in velocity between .44 pistols with a 5 1/2" barrel, 7 1/2" barrel, 12", etc? How about in .36?

6. Can anyone give me a basic rundown of the common manufacturers of BP revolvers, like which ones are high end, which are low, etc.? Like on Dixie Gun Works I've seen mostly Pietta, Uberti, and no-name; looks like Uberti is more expensive, so is the quality increase proportional to the price increase? What other brands are out there?

7. Are there any guns aside from the Ruger Old Army that get along fine with jacketed bullets? How would sabots work in a revolver, assuming they fit right?

That's all I can think of for now. I'll probably have more questions later.

 

[mec]

I'll try a few of them:

1&2. I've never heard of a blow up with any of the black powder substitutes. I have clocked some scary high velocities with 777 in a couple of revolvers. They do blow up with smokeless powder -full charges or sometimes small amounts used in concert with black powder to reduce fouling{bad idea}

Current powders available in my area include Goex in various granulations. Im familiar with fffg. I usually provides the smallest extreme velocity spreads and can be the most accurate if the bore is cleared of fouling on a regular basis.

Pyrodex P. Volume for volume it tends to produce the same velocities as Goex fffg. In smaller calibers like 31 and 36, I have found it to produce near identical velocities as fffg but as the caliber and charge levels go up, Pyrodex tends to produce higher velocities.

Pyrodex RS is designed for rifle and shotguns. In the .44 revolvers and single shot pistols, it seems to produce velocities closer to fffg that Pyrodex p does.

Hogdons 777. Loaded to the same volumn as fffg, it tends to produce extremely high velocities and wide shot to shot velocity variations. Reduced a bit, it is just as accurate as pyrodex p and fffg and is a bit easier to clean up. It advertises itself as cleanable by room temperature tap water .

American Pioneer. Produces extremely low velocities compared to the others. It is fairly clean burning and is said to be non hygroscopic/ non corrosive. This does not keep it from causing rust if you dont clean the gun.

Accuracy can be very good.

3. Ive never checked a round shot direct from the cylinder and always considered a dropped loaded/capped cylinder an excellent way to shoot yourself dead. Recently I saw something on the internet where a guy removed his revolver barrel and fired from the cylinder only. He recorded velocities so low as to be harmless. I'd have to try this one before I believed it. A screw barrel .451 pedersoli derringer with 9 grains of fffg will get to 350 fps and shoot through a 3/4" pine board.


4. I've loaded buck and ball in an Aston Johnson single shot and buck in the under barrel of a LeMat. I know almost nothing about it except if your wadding isn't tight it will sound like somebody lit off a fart and the projectiles will roll out on the ground.

5. I have no experience with different barrel lengths

6. Manufacturers. In the past several years, Uberti quality has taken a marked up-turn. Internal parts are now lasting longer and, amazingly, there are a couple of reliable sources for spare parts. Uberti USA and Cimarron even service the guns they sell.

Armi San Marco has produced a lot of the bp revolvers currently in circulation. They never practiced any degree of quality control or stood by their products in any way. They have gone broke.

Palmetto Arms produces some interesting reproductions sold through dixie gun works and maybe a couple of other souces. There is no evidence what ever that they provide any customer support or that any spare parts are available.

Pietta is generally considered superior to Armi San Marco but some will argue the point. Some PIetta owners are very satisfied and some say Pietta quality has improved over the last several years. Their LeMat revolvers are accurate and nicely finished showing that they can produce a quality revolver if they so choose.
VTI gunparts is now keeping parts for some of the Pietta products. Before that, pietta spare parts were impossible to find, This is because the company has no customer service arrangements and the owner/managers do not have much of a grasp of the workings of the company.

Pedersoli- They contract with a german company to produce copies of the Remington Beal type revolver and the Rogers and Spencer ( I think} These are very expensive and made for serious target competitors. Most Pedersoli Products are high quality and they have a world wide network of service centers.

7 I'm not aware of any black powder revolver that would work well with jacketed bullets.

 

[RyanM]

Great start, thanks Mec. What do the different substitutes smell like when fired? All I remember reading is that black powder smells like rotten eggs (sulfur, ick), and Pyrodex smells like old socks.

Thought of another question, too, kind of a 5b; are there any powder substitutes that work better through the 5 1/2 barrel "snubbies," or small derringers?

And 1b; I've read that an airspace between powder and bullet can blow up a gun with some substitutes. Has this been confirmed, and if so, which ones will do that? I'm guessing that if a particular substitute behaves more like smokeless, in that it burns slower when not tightly enclosed, you could get a hangfire if there's an airspace, but I don't think that would blow up the gun.

 

[mec]

dont know of one that works better in short barrels than another. our 31s have 4" barrels. Oddly enough velocities will all the powders are about equal -even with the h777 which is notibly hot in larger bores.

The blow up potential of loose powder under the ball is explained by some by saying that the bullet/ ball acts like a barrel obstruction if not seated fully on the powder. The potential seems to be present with black powder as well as substitutes.

Smell. It seems like pyrodex smells a bit like sulphur while pioneer and h777 do not.

 

[Stickjockey]

Hmm.

1. I, too, have never heard of anyone blowing one up with the modern substitutes. That doesn't mean it can't happen, and I ain't in an experimentin' mood. Also: DON'T USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN A MUZZLELOADING FIREARM!! I have heard the old "just mix in a bit of smokeless with your FFF and you'll see amazing things from your old frontstuffer." Amazing, yeah--

2. Can't give you a complete rundown, but GOEX and Elephant are two of the bigger brands of black powder. Pyrodex, 777, and Cleanshot are some of the brands of substitutes. My experience deals mainly with GOEX and Pyrodex just because they're all I've been able to find at my local stores here.Fouling and performance seem to be about the same; I find black powder to be easier to clean up, and it tastes better.

3. Probably not quite as powerful as a round out the end of the barrel, due to the unburned powder, but I wouldn't want to be o the receiving end of it. Still possibly lethal, plus powder burns to deal with.

4. Never messed with buck-and-ball, but the way I've seen shot loaded was powder, overpowder wad, shot, overshot wad or card.

5. Couldn't tell you exact differences, although I'd bet there are some.

6. Pietta and Uberti are the big ones; I think Uberti is slightly higher quality. Rumor has it that all of the current production is done in Italy; even the Colt BP frames are made there. At least that's the rumor.

7. You know more than I do about the Ruger BP revo's. I didn't know there were any that were okay with jacketed bullets.

Tip: When you get yours, play around with different loads and brands. My 1860 was reticent, rude, and just plain ornery when fed Pyrodex. I was just about to get rid of it, when a friend handed me a flask of FFF GOEX. Ran like a well-trained thoroughbred after that.

Hope this helps!

 

[mcneill]

Regarding smoke and smell -

My only experience is with Goex FFFg black powder. While you are correct that it smells somewhat like rotten eggs, it makes lots of pretty smoke and after a time you will become addicted and begin to like the smell.

"... if I drop a loaded cylinder just so, that something hits a percussion cap and it's pointed at me, then how long would I be staying at the hospital"
Not quite sure what you mean here - why would you have a loaded cylinder with caps removed from the gun?

Jim

 

[mec]

Right! big safety no-no to have capped cylinders floating around free. 19th century people didn't know this or didn't care and frequently carried around capped and loaded cylinders for fast reloads. Take a look at some boxed sets of patersons and you see extra cylinders included.

More on Goex: i found some velocities one of the gunwriters recorded with Goex and a selection of revolvers. This was several years ago and his velocities were higher than those I've recorded in .44s and lower than those Ive measured in .36s. His batch of powder (or guns) also produced higher velocities with Goex than with Pyrodex P- which is the reverse of the trend I'm seeing.

All this means is that velocities and performance are not set in concrete.

Also, the substitutes are a bit harder to ignite than black powder. They don't do well at all in flintlocks and require extra clean, dry and clear chambers and nipples for reliability in the revolvers.

 

[RyanM]

The blow up potential of loose powder under the ball is explained by some by saying that the bullet/ ball acts like a barrel obstruction if not seated fully on the powder. The potential seems to be present with black powder as well as substitutes.

I can see how a bullet lodged in the barrel would blow up the gun, since the barrel's intended to only take a relatively small amount of pressure, but I'd think the chamber would be able to hold together until the ball popped out, it'd just be a bit higher than normal operating pressure. Maybe? I'm not going to try it, though!

Not quite sure what you mean here - why would you have a loaded cylinder with caps removed from the gun?

Maybe if I bought a really, really, really low-quality gun, and the wedge pin fell out, followed shortly by the cylinder? Or if I were standing next to someone with such a gun, or someone that was dumb enough to keep a loaded, capped cylinder in their pocket, unbeknownst to me.

I dunno, just seemed like a good enough example of what I meant.

 

[Gatofeo]

I've fired my Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy (.36 cal) and Pietta-made copy of the 1860 Colt (.44 cal) without the barrel assembly attached.
I did this when I put too much powder in the chamber and couldn't get the ball or conical bullet down far enough in the chamber to clear the barrel.
It's a harmless practice.
Velocity is very low since the ball just pops out of the cylinder. It's also inaccurate because the ball or bullet has no guidance.
I recall doing it with my 1851 Navy a few years ago. The ball hit a wooden, wire spool at about 1 o'clock to my position, about 20 feet away. I heard it thunk and went over to look. There, on its hub made of 2X4s, was the shallow impression of a .36-caliber ball.
I reloaded and shot the same area six times with a full load (24 grs. of Goex FFFG under a .380 inch ball). Each ball went through the 2X4. Obviously, the ball travels rather slowly (read weakly) without the barrel assembly attached.
The same lack of power is felt on the few occasions I've fired my .44 without the barrel assembly. The gun goes bang and the ball raises dust about 25 yards away, as it skips across the ground.

Back in Feb. 18, 2004 I wrote a piece in this section entitled, "How To Properly Use A Cap And Ball Revolver" that will have a lot of good information for you. Do a search and find it. Search under my name (Gatofeo) and you'll find scads of information on cap and ball revolvers, either initiated by me or showing when I commented.
Mec is a longtime contributor and has a wealth of information to offer as well. Search under his name.
StickJockey is new to me but I agree with his points above. Might want to see, via a search, what he has to offer too. He obviously knows his stuff (and he's better-looking than me or Mec )
Fill the hopper on your printer and print these out. They'll give you a ton of information, from me and others who have good, solid experience in cap and ball revolvers.
I started shooting cap and balls about 35 years ago, when the only information was minimal. Today, we're blessed to have the internet and sites like this, where information may be shared with minutes of discovery.

 

[Burt Blade]

In any Blackpowder firearm, the projectile must be seated fully down on the powder with no air gap. This is true regardless of propellant, "real BP" or "substitute". The label on the container will indicate the recommended degree of powder compression, but all of them require the properly seated projectile, with no air-space behind it.

Stay away from maximum charges. They are seldom very accurate. The guns may not burst, but you can still batter them to junk by trying to magnumize them. (And you could batter them into bursting if you really press your luck.)

A good reference: “The Complete Blackpowder Handbook†by Sam Fadala, Krause Publications, www. Krause.com. (my copy is the 4th edition, c2001)

 

[El Deguello]

Yes, BP smells like rotten eggs. IMO, Pyrodex, while not smelling like BP, actually smells WORSE than BP. The other substitutes, 777, American Pioneer (formerly Clean Shot), ClearShot (if yo can find any) don't smell too bad. I actually prefer the smell of real BP, as it is what is addictive about shooting BP weapons. None of the other powders really do the same nearly as well.....

IF you want POWER from a BP revolver, get a Ruger OLD ARMY! Then use a wonderwad under the ball instead of grease over it!