A VERY disturbing development at the indoor range

[THEWELSHM]

Most of my reloads could pass as factory ammo.

Mine does too, I maintain the fiction by putting them in Parabellum boxes

Thewelshm

 

[bersaguy]

I see the liability boogie man being raised from the grave to scare shooters. Be afraid or the boogie man will get you. But what is the liability to the range if a shooter brings his own reloads and blows himself (or worse others) up with his own reloads? And why would there be a financial liability?

Its not so much the actual liability, its the cost of defending yourself in court. Though, with indoor ranges, i find them predominantly in or around urban centers. I also find the preponderance of anti-gun, safety label loving, litigious nanny state type folks in and around urban centers. And seeing as that's who would make up the jury in that area, maybe the liability is more of a concern

 

[Spare Parts]

I did give the instructor a headache, since I insisted to go last so I could police up all the brass

Yeah, we reloaders tend to self-identify.

I'm a volunteer on the church security team. Me and another guy "Hoover" the range. He gets the 9, I get the .40. Brass is a strategic resource.

 

[Spare Parts]

Does the range have liability for the condition of the shooters weapons?

This question has precedent on the Colorado ski slopes. The skier has assumed liability for their equipment and their decisions. The terrain is the terrain, and consequences can be severe.

 

[Tusker10mm]

Only problem we have ever had in the last 40 years was when a factory RWS 357 load blew up a members Colt TROOPER I dont trust factory over my own loads and never will. Im never in a hurry and my attention to detail is beyond reproach Just the way it is. Mistakes can happen to anyone, but dont paint everyone with the same brush

 

[CQB45ACP]

Its not so much the actual liability, its the cost of defending yourself in court. Though, with indoor ranges, i find them predominantly in or around urban centers. I also find the preponderance of anti-gun, safety label loving, litigious nanny state type folks in and around urban centers. And seeing as that's who would make up the jury in that area, maybe the liability is more of a concern

Right...that’s what I was reading as Slamfire’s boogieman. It’s not the actual liability it’s the ghost of liabilities past, present, and future that folks fear.

Dense suburbs make outdoor ranges less common than SPP.

 

[lordpaxman]

My club wanted to institute a new member policy where they would be on probation and would be dismissed for safety infractions. I argued successfully that it would make more sense to educate these people on safety, and set up a short course to do that for all members. You’d be surprised how many existing members needed it.
“Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime”
While I believe in as much freedom as possible, I do get nervous at the IDR when shooters step up to the point next to me. Bad ammo is just one of the possibilities. The NRA has a metallic reloading class that’s pretty basic but if the range is having issues, this could help. It won’t prevent all failures but could go a long way at increasing safety and membership. You’d need to show your successful class “pass” if you were shooting reloads, along with your vaccination card. Good luck.

 

[unwashed]

My club wanted to institute a new member policy where they would be on probation and would be dismissed for safety infractions. I argued successfully that it would make more sense to educate these people on safety, and set up a short course to do that for all members. You’d be surprised how many existing members needed it.
“Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime”
While I believe in as much freedom as possible, I do get nervous at the IDR when shooters step up to the point next to me. Bad ammo is just one of the possibilities. The NRA has a metallic reloading class that’s pretty basic but if the range is having issues, this could help. It won’t prevent all failures but could go a long way at increasing safety and membership. You’d need to show your successful class “pass” if you were shooting reloads, along with your vaccination card. Good luck.

Please tell me you're joking. You want freedom but you want to deny service and discriminate against certain people. My freedom doesn't end where your fear begins.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Please tell me you're joking. You want freedom but you want to deny service and discriminate against certain people. My freedom doesn't end where your fear begins.

Uhhh, private businesses instituting private requirements isn’t an assault on freedom. It’s the opposite.

 

[Spats McGee]

Morality aside, that is protecting your Range Officer employees, just what is the liability of a range if a shooter is injured by his own reloads? Or, if a shooter, or by stander, is injured by defective factory ammunition? Does the range have liability for the condition of the shooters weapons? It could be the shooter's own personal weapon is defective in some way and kabooms at the range.

I see the liability boogie man being raised from the grave to scare shooters. Be afraid or the boogie man will get you. But what is the liability to the range if a shooter brings his own reloads and blows himself (or worse others) up with his own reloads? And why would there be a financial liability?

Right...that’s what I was reading as Slamfire’s boogieman. It’s not the actual liability it’s the ghost of liabilities past, present, and future that folks fear....

I think @bersaguy has hit the nail on the head.

Its not so much the actual liability, its the cost of defending yourself in court....

Were I advising a gun range on the issue of reloads, I wouldn't worry too much about someone who shoots reloads. There's a perfectly good 'assumption of risk' argument to protect the range on that, and liability waivers to boot. And TBH, I wouldn't even worry too much about the people in the lanes next to that shooter. Liability waivers again. With that said, if the range allows reloads, there is some possibility, not being zero, that if someone is injured (particularly next-lane shooters), a premises liability lawsuit may come down the pike. At that point, the cost of defense has to be taken into account and lawyers ain't cheap. I'm not saying that anyone should avoid reloads at the range, not by any means, but merely pointing out why they might be banned.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I think @bersaguy has hit the nail on the head.

Were I advising a gun range on the issue of reloads, I wouldn't worry too much about someone who shoots reloads. There's a perfectly good 'assumption of risk' argument to protect the range on that, and liability waivers to boot. And TBH, I wouldn't even worry too much about the people in the lanes next to that shooter. Liability waivers again. With that said, if the range allows reloads, there is some possibility, not being zero, that if someone is injured (particularly next-lane shooters), a premises liability lawsuit may come down the pike. At that point, the cost of defense has to be taken into account and lawyers ain't cheap. I'm not saying that anyone should avoid reloads at the range, not by any means, but merely pointing out why they might be banned.

Aren’t we really missing the forest for the trees or something like that? Ranges are dangerous scary places with the real risk of a nut job deciding to go postal.

 

[unwashed]

Uhhh, private businesses instituting private requirements isn’t an assault on freedom. It’s the opposite.

I don't want to derail this thread but, this is discrimination, no different then denying someone service due to skin color. So, not legal but herd mentality of fear.

BTW Maybe I should start publicly advocate more gun laws, since from all the stupid I see out there that can cause people to die and safety over freedom should prevail.

 

[Spats McGee]

Aren’t we really missing the forest for the trees or something like that? Ranges are dangerous scary places with the real risk of a nut job deciding to go postal.

What, exactly, does that 'real risk' have to do with the fact that cost of defense is a factor to consider in a range setting up its policies?

 

[Craig_AR]

this is discrimination, no different then denying someone service due to skin color.

Keep in mind that discrimination itself is not illegal. Only discrimination based on any one of several aspects defined in laws, including race, sex, age, disability, etc., is illegal.
Legal discrimination may be a good idea, or may be bad business or insulting.

Craig

 

[Mark_Mark]

My club wanted to institute a new member policy where they would be on probation and would be dismissed for safety infractions. I argued successfully that it would make more sense to educate these people on safety, and set up a short course to do that for all members. You’d be surprised how many existing members needed it.
“Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime”
While I believe in as much freedom as possible, I do get nervous at the IDR when shooters step up to the point next to me. Bad ammo is just one of the possibilities. The NRA has a metallic reloading class that’s pretty basic but if the range is having issues, this could help. It won’t prevent all failures but could go a long way at increasing safety and membership. You’d need to show your successful class “pass” if you were shooting reloads, along with your vaccination card. Good luck.

VAX card... no way, rather shoot airsoft

 

[CQB45ACP]

I don't want to derail this thread but, this is discrimination, no different then denying someone service due to skin color. So, not legal but herd mentality of fear.

You’re absolutely correct. It is discrimination which is entirely lawful, commonplace, appropriate, and necessary except in limited circumstances. But, you are also absolutely incorrect—this is nothing like denying someone service because of their skin color. Nothing. No shoes, no shirt, no service...is also discriminating and perfectly legal.

 

[CQB45ACP]

What, exactly, does that 'real risk' have to do with the fact that cost of defense is a factor to consider in a range setting up its policies?

Only that we’re deciding whether to worry about reloaders at an inherently dangerous place

 

[CQB45ACP]

Keep in mind that discrimination itself is not illegal. Only discrimination based on any one of several aspects defined in laws, including race, sex, age, disability, etc., is illegal.
Legal discrimination may be a good idea, or may be bad business or insulting.

Craig

Agreed—our comments passed in the ether.

 

[unwashed]

Agreed—our comments passed in the ether.

I know no one can change anyone's mind But when they ban guns for the safety of others you can reflect on these comments.

 

[mmb617]

When I was deciding whether to buy a membership at the local indoor range I was told they preferred that people not collect their brass and that almost stopped me. But then I thought since it didn't say they prohibited the practice I'd see what happened and joined up. I try to be reasonable about it and never walk behind another shooter to get brass that bounces off the divider and leaves my lane. No one there has ever said anything to me about picking up my brass and I see others who also retrieve their own brass. If they ever added a rule saying I can't shoot reloads in my own guns I'd end my membership there.

 

[Jim Watson]

Don't ask a question you don't know the answer to.
I just commenced picking up brass in my lane and nobody ever said me nay. Heck, if times are slow, a couple of the range operators will help me. One staffer offered to sell me buckets of range pickup 9mm but the store would not back him up. Easier just to sell it as scrap than sort it.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I know no one can change anyone's mind But when they ban guns for the safety of others you can reflect on these comments.

I hear you but this to me is just a business owner setting his own rules. And I don’t really care. I’d just take my business elsewhere. I didn’t know however there were ranges that didn’t allow reloaded ammo. As a newbie, I never gave it any thought. And if that happens around here I’ll be PO’d and SOL.

 

[twarr1]

To my mind, reloading has a much steeper learning curve than shooting. There are many variables and things that can go wrong. It's not for everyone, and especially probably not the new guy who wants to "reload his bullits" because he can't find ammunition on the shelves at wally world.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The indoor range I have visited did not care if I used my handloads in my guns.
They did have rental guns and I understand why they would not want me shooting my handloads in their guns.
And they asked that shooters please police their own brass after shooting.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I didn’t know however there were ranges that didn’t allow reloaded ammo.

Me either. That's why I found it so shocking. I always figured the lane dividers were for the safety of other shooters and what happens in another lane is isolated. I have noticed at every public place I shoot - private club or open to the public - a startling lack of both propriety and courtesy recently. It can't all be newbies who don't know any better. I'm also seeing a lot more sloppiness in firearms handling - people at the sales counter sweeping the crowd with the muzzle, not checking chambers, repeated dry-firing of rimfires, etc. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned and it's too much these days to ask people to be mannerly, polite and courteous.