About Home Defense gun selection - why no shotshell revolvers

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With a long enough barrel, the 5-pellet 000 buck loads aren't as anemic as some think they are in the tests I've seen. But it's still not the best proposition nor is it the lightest or easiest to carry snake gun. I think a Charter Arms Bulldog .44 loaded with CCI shot would make a much better all around defensive revolver for snakes and JHPs for two legged vermints.
 
Winchester pdx-1 sure looks like it would hurt. The disk and shot combo seems cool. But I'd rather grab my beretta. Or mossberg. 410 just doesn't seem like a thing to trust my life to. I do want a bond arms derringer for snakes.
 
socalbeachbum said:
I got a pile of gun mags on my coffee table with several articles about shotguns vs carbine vs handguns for home defense. I always read these articles and wonder why they don't mention a .410 shotshell revolver like the Judge or the Governor. We in California can't have them, but I'm just wondering, do they make sense for home defense?
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All you needed to do was actually fire one of those 'small boat anchors' at a target to see why they are useless for ANY S/D purpose.

The only thing they might do is blind an attacker [ called INTENTIONAL MAIMING ] and will get you jailed.

You might be justified in using DPF to stop an attacker,not in maiming one intentionally.

I actually carried a derringer with 00 buck in .410 shotshells.

UNTIL it was fired at a real target and I saw the misses FAR outweighed the hits of the stinking few balls in that round.

It would beat a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but that is all .

IF you must carry one of those boat anchors,load it with either .45 colt or .410 slug.And do note there are smaller and LIGHTER guns to fire those real rounds

Rant off.
 
It always amuses me the visceral reactions these 45 Colt/.410 revolvers bring out in people. "Abomination", "toy", "gimmick", "crap gun with a horrid trigger", "intentional maiming" (really?). I'm no ballistics expert, but I would think at 10 feet, which is the distance from my bedroom to the top of the stairs, a face-full of #4 shot might do a little more than "blind an attacker".
I'm by no means touting these revolvers as the end-all, be-all of home protection, but they're certainly not airsoft or BB guns either. Federal #4 personal defense loads claim 850 fps. Let's say that's ambitious, and they're really 600 fps. That's 65 pellets (or so) of #4 shot traveling at over 400 mph. Might hurt a little.
 
tcook90 said:
It always amuses me the visceral reactions these 45 Colt/.410 revolvers bring out in people. "Abomination", "toy", "gimmick", "crap gun with a horrid trigger", "intentional maiming" (really?). I'm no ballistics expert, but I would think at 10 feet, which is the distance from my bedroom to the top of the stairs, a face-full of #4 shot might do a little more than "blind an attacker".
I'm by no means touting these revolvers as the end-all, be-all of home protection, but they're certainly not airsoft or BB guns either. Federal #4 personal defense loads claim 850 fps. Let's say that's ambitious, and they're really 600 fps. That's 65 pellets (or so) of #4 shot traveling at over 400 mph. Might hurt a little.
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Indeed. And if you lived in Brazil, where a smooth bore shotshell revolver is all you could have in the revolver line, it may well be a good choice. Here, there's no such logic.
 
This may have been said already but if you go to the "shotgun" forum and say "hey is a .410 shottie with an 18" barrel a good HD gun" you get hammered with "get a twelve, or at least a 20 gauge if you're recoil sensitive" but people will somehow think a .410 in a pistol becomes this magical man-stopper in the face of all ballistic evidence to the contrary...
 
As I've posted before in response to a number of similar questions about "could I use XYZ for home defense?" -- We are imaginative creatures. We enjoy playing with ideas and nifty toys. Trying things out to see "what if?" Gear heads just love to experiment and go off on tangents away from the mundane and boring commonplace ideas. That's neat and an important foundation stone to our concept of scientific discovery.

Gun guys are just as gear-obsessed and allured by kewl toys as the enthusiasts in any other area, from cars to photography to computer gaming to cooking, etc.

But, singularly among those obsessive hobbyists, the ultimate aspect of our area of focus is the saving of the actual lives of ourselves and our loved ones and the attendant potential TAKING of the life or lives of violent attackers. We literally, and supposedly soberly, discuss shooting and killing other humans who are desperately attempting to slice, club, or shoot us or our wives, husbands, children, etc. ... TO DEATH.

Self or "home" defense is not a plate shoot, USPSA match, benchrest competition, it is not a leisurely afternoon busting clays or plinking tin cans, and it isn't even equivalent to something "important" like the shot of a lifetime at a Rocky Mountain elk. There is no room in considering this life-saving and life-taking action for deliberately choosing a weapon that might work well enough. That you might hit your adversary with quickly. That might deliver a payload capable of punching through obstructions and bone to stop his body from working well enough to kill you. In other words, there is no room for choosing something that is not the most fit, most reliable, simplest choice to get the job done with the utter highest probability of success. What gun can YOU shoot such that you make the most hits, fastest? There is no other acceptable choice.

When the subject of these shotshell revolvers comes up, or hand-held stockless pistol-rifles, PGO shotguns, and other marginal items, there's always a lot of justification of the choice. As though you get to negotiate the matter with the physics of a violent encounter. "Well, no, a teaspoon of shot isn't as good as a 147 gr. slug at 1,000 fps, of course, but it sure might hurt!" Or, "yeah it's big and heavy and only holds a few rounds but you know it's not as bad as you probably think..."

I picture a Coroner standing over the scene assigning your corpse extra credit because you made a go of it with a neat-o whiz-bang gun. "Good show old chap! Just rotten luck it didn't work, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? Better luck next time..."
 
Shawn Dodson said:
Federal's .410 000 buckshot load contains four or five .36 caliber pellets, depending on the load, that penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage tissues critical to immediate survival when fired from a Judge or Governor. I've shot this load thru a Taurus Judge and it patterned well. Recoil was manageable. I was surprised at the weight of the Judge - a 3" Magnum, 3" bbl - I expected it to be heavier and unwieldy which it is not. I wouldn't discourage anyone who wanted one for home defense as it will certainly get the job done with the right load.

I bought my wife an 18" Taurus Circuit Judge revolver shotgun for home defense for when I'm on business travel. It offers the simplicity of operation of a revolver combined with the increased hit potential of a long gun. It's loaded with the Federal 000 buckshot load containing five pellets.
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A Judge PD loaded with the Federal Premium four pellet 000 buck load has been my "across the living room" gun for several years.

It shoots a fist sized group at 10 yards to POA with that load.

I'd probably never carry it, but I wouldn't want to be shot with it.
 
Ding Ding Ding-----GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLE
Do you own one check
Do you shoot it a lot check
Do you use Fed 000 buck check
Did you buy it with your $ check
Do you enjoy shooting it check
Do you care what someone else thinks about it__________.
 
Do you enjoy shooting it check
Do you care what someone else thinks about it__________.
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Do you own firearms that are known to be more certain performers against violent aggressors, which fire rounds of long-proven effectiveness against those exact types of threats, which hold more of those rounds, which are of a size and form and function more ergonomic and amenable to high-speed, high risk use in extremely short time windows? And which you can (should...will?) practice with relatively cheaply week after week or month after month so your skills are more likely to be adequate to the challenge when it comes? Check, check, check, check, ... and check?

Are you choosing to use a marginal weapon with higher risks of poor effect as a self-defense tool because it's funky funny fun and you enjoy shooting it? Check.

Are you being clear with yourself and others that the moment you fire it at another human in desperate attempt to prevent your imminent death, there are several large risks introduced which may govern whether you'll live or die -- that will arise entirely due to a decision you made for frivolous reasons? ______?



Nobody is picking on anyone else for buying one and having a big ol' grinning knee-slapper of a time with it on the range.

But the original question was why the folks who study defensive shooting matters don't publish articles extolling the virtues of these things for self-defense. There's a very clear answer to that question.
 
Sam1911 said:
Do you own firearms that are known to be more certain performers against violent aggressors, which fire rounds of long-proven effectiveness against those exact types of threats, which hold more of those rounds, which are of a size and form and function more ergonomic and amenable to high-speed, high risk use in extremely short time windows? And which you can (should...will?) practice with relatively cheaply week after week or month after month so your skills are more likely to be adequate to the challenge when it comes? Check, check, check, check, ... and check?

Are you choosing to use a marginal weapon with higher risks of poor effect as a self-defense tool because it's funky funny fun and you enjoy shooting it? Check.

Are you being clear with yourself and others that the moment you fire it at another human in desperate attempt to prevent your imminent death, there are several large risks introduced which may govern whether you'll live or die -- that will arise entirely due to a decision you made for frivolous reasons? ______?



Nobody is picking on anyone else for buying one and having a big ol' grinning knee-slapper of a time with it on the range.

But the original question was why the folks who study defensive shooting matters don't publish articles extolling the virtues of these things for self-defense. There's a very clear answer to that question.
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I,m not trying to sell my opinion to anyone, like yours it's just an opinion. Have you ever shot one loaded with Fed 000 buckshot? Not I've seen or so and so said. I do and I see what it's capable of doing at 7yds and less. My bedroom hallway is 5yds to the end of it. In the dark Ill take my chances of stopping the badguy with my load. I'll hopefully never have to find out if it works. If it doesn't work be sure and tell everybody how wrong I was. ;)
 
I have a Mec. 410 reloader, and I reload .45colt as well. I will probably have a judge someday. My neighbor has a one, I have shot it and liked it. I broke several clay pigeons with it for fun.
 
I,m not trying to sell my opinion to anyone, like yours it's just an opinion.
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Actually, this isn't strictly speaking, only a pure opinion in the basic sense (i.e. "chocolate is yummy"), but rather a reasoned argument made up of facts and linked concepts that build a case for consideration. The opinion that you like it, and the follow up that you don't care what anyone else thinks of it, are just opinion, and if they are to help answer the questions posed by the original poster, you need to build the case that has informed your opinion.

Have you ever shot one loaded with Fed 000 buckshot? Not I've seen or so and so said.
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Unfortunately, that's actually not a reasoned argument against something, but rather a dodge. A rhetorical smoke screen to mask the fact that you aren't making a point, yourself.

I have not fired a Judge and the fact that I haven't pulled the trigger of one on a live round has nothing to do with an objective analysis of it's suitability for a task. I haven't jumped out of an airplane without a parachute, either, but I know enough things to explain why that's not the best choice for reaching the ground safely.

I guess you can say, "Oh, if you haven't done it then you really don't know!" but that's fatuous.

I do and I see what it's capable of doing at 7yds and less.
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That might be part of a reasoned argument, if you have observations about how that payload shot, how it patterned, and importantly, how it performed in penetration against muscle tissue and bone. Then compare that with what's known about how common defensive purpose cartridges and firearms perform in the same situations. And compare and contrast your ability to make hits on target at speed, with that firearm as opposed to other standard weapons people are familiar with. And give some weighted consideration to secondary considerations like capacity and reload facility, reliability, sights, etc.

My bedroom hallway is 5yds to the end of it. In the dark Ill take my chances of stopping the badguy with my load.
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And that's the crux of my concluding point from before. You WILL take your chances. And some of your odds are modified (downward?) by choosing that gun.

Do you feel that you're IMPROVING your chances by choosing that gun over something more conventional? If so, please explain. THAT would be useful information. Why, in that moment of instantaneous and dire need, this gun would be BETTER than a common sidearm, shotgun, carbine, etc.?
 
Sam1911 said:
Actually, this isn't strictly speaking, only a pure opinion in the basic sense (i.e. "chocolate is yummy"), but rather a reasoned argument made up of facts and linked concepts that build a case for consideration. The opinion that you like it, and the follow up that you don't care what anyone else thinks of it, are just opinion, and if they are to help answer the questions posed by the original poster, you need to build the case that has informed your opinion.


Unfortunately, that's actually not a reasoned argument against something, but rather a dodge. A rhetorical smoke screen to mask the fact that you aren't making a point, yourself.

I have not fired a Judge and the fact that I haven't pulled the trigger of one on a live round has nothing to do with an objective analysis of it's suitability for a task. I haven't jumped out of an airplane without a parachute, either, but I know enough things to explain why that's not the best choice for reaching the ground safely.

I guess you can say, "Oh, if you haven't done it then you really don't know!" but that's fatuous.


That might be part of a reasoned argument, if you have observations about how that payload shot, how it patterned, and importantly, how it performed in penetration against muscle tissue and bone. Then compare that with what's known about how common defensive purpose cartridges and firearms perform in the same situations. And compare and contrast your ability to make hits on target at speed, with that firearm as opposed to other standard weapons people are familiar with. And give some weighted consideration to secondary considerations like capacity and reload facility, reliability, sights, etc.


And that's the crux of my concluding point from before. You WILL take your chances. And some of your odds are modified (downward?) by choosing that gun.

Do you feel that you're IMPROVING your chances by choosing that gun over something more conventional? If so, please explain. THAT would be useful information. Why, in that moment of instantaneous and dire need, this gun would be BETTER than a common sidearm, shotgun, carbine, etc.?
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You friend are right. Their for sure is a smoke screen being used here.
Which perp would be the deadest, one killed with a Sig P226 a Kimber 1911 or a Judge.
 
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Probably because .410 shot shells shot out of guns like a Taurus Judge or S&W Governor have been deemed not effective enough.
 
I don't have (or want) a Taurus Judge or an S&W governor, but for a limited role of very close range defense, they're not bad.
IMO
meh
 
IIRC hickok45 had a video on one and even premium ammo had pretty poor penetration results. Probably still lethal though.

With the recoil involved I'm certain that a quality 9mm in my hands is a superior defensive firearm.

That said I have contemplated one as a snake gun a number of times.
 
"...a teaspoon of shot isn't as good as a 147 gr. slug at 1,000 fps..."
That 1/2 ounce teaspoon of shot weighs about 220 grains. And at 10 feet, even with a rifled barrel, it spreads about 8 inches, with a majority at 3-4 inches (from my testing with S&W Governor). 6 shots at 10 feet in 3 to 5 seconds tears up everything I've tried as a target (Paper, cardboard, phonebooks, raw chicken, pork ribs and shoulder). Then a quick reload of 45 ACP in a moonclip. (The 45's are very accurate out to 25 yards, in my experience with the Governor.)
Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone that a 45 Colt/410 revolver is the BEST tool for defense. Certainly viable, though - IMO.

I picture a Coroner standing over the intruder/burglar/murderer's corpse wondering what neat-o whiz-bang gun did that to his face and neck.
 
stchman said:
Probably because .410 shot shells shot out of guns like a Taurus Judge or S&W Governor have been deemed not effective enough.
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Just out of curiosity
are you calling the Federal handgun .410 000 buckshot round a shotshell? If you are who deemed them not effective enough? Everything I've found researching them and my own (not scientific) back yard research says they're effective enough to stop a threat within 7yds. That's all I'm requiring for it to do in the nightstand role. I know but but but birdshot flamers say. But but but I'm not talking birdshot here am I.
 
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