Ack, I think I might have made a big mistake here in 454 Casull HELP

[SimplyComplicated]

Hi all. I've been silently enjoying the hobby for a while now, but I recently picked up a nice Super Redhawk in 454 Casull and the dies to load for it.

I think I may have made a huge mistake. I bought 230 grain XTP bullets because that's all I could get my hands on, and I simply reduced the charge weight to compensate for the lighter weight (as opposed to 250 grain bullets). What I didn't think about was the fact that these bullets have no canneulure. Oh, right, and they aren't even optimal as far as diameter is concerned (.451 instead of .452).

My recipe was 26 grains of Hercules 2400 with a 250 grain bullet, so I went with 22.5 grains of the same with 230 grain bullets. CCI small rifle primers.

I have a lee factory crimp die, and the bullets seem to be well seated and crimped (slight bulge in case, they look beautiful, just like factory ammo), but I'm a bit nervous.

Should I pull all of these rounds? Am I at risk for lower than expected velocities and unburned powder, or am I at risk for (somehow) astronomical pressure and a blown top strap?

I'm going to get some 300 grain bullets with a cannelure for any future rounds, but if I can at all safely salvage these rounds, it is a consideration.

How embarassing.

 

[SteveW-II]

You would normally increase the power charge for lighter bullets, so what you have now are rounds with a light load. Given that you are using rifle primers, I can't imagine you will have ignition problems. Go ahead a fire a few. You won't damage the gun but it is very unlikely they will shoot to point of aim.

Alternatively, you can disassemble the rounds if you want to re-use the components.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Since you have them and the revolver is new to you I would put them in one at a time and shoot them... If one at a time you will handle the revolver quite a bit loading, and unloading etc...Get the hang of it...

Normally on a new test with components you would only load about 5 and see the results
I suggest the one at a time, 454 are known for recoil and moving bullets that are not crimped really well...As you have mentioned...One way to enjoy

Rifle primers are harder, and you might have a problem or not???

Good luck...

 

[rcmodel]

You are way way under the 28.0 grain starting load with 2400 & a 240 grain bullet, so I foresee no pressure problems.

Yes, you may get a dirty burn due to too low pressure, but there is nothing inherently unsafe about reducing 2400 below normal loads as long as you get the bullets out of the barrel.

That is not the case with H110/W296, or other ball powders, so don't do it with them.

Since you are using .45 ACP pistol bullets, insted of revolver bullets, creep from recoil is a possibility you need to watch for though.

rc

 

[SimplyComplicated]

I know, you're only supposed to load a few of them and test... I have no idea why I went with 100 of them... Okay I lied, I know why.

I figured I'd use it exclusively this next range sesson . I probably should have planned on using something else for the rest of the session any way. You guys are right, the recoil might get to me after about 20 or so of these rounds. The only handgun round I've fired in this range is the .44 mag, and .454 Casull is a bit of a step up.

And I never really understood the concept of using more powder with a lighter projectile until today's screw up. Now that I think about it, it's simple physics. There's less case volume filled, and thus less pressure in the case. I guess one could seat the bullet further into the case, but that has it's own problems.

They're in there better than I thought too. I can't pull them... they're too well crimped. I don't think I'll loose too much pressure on these after all. other than from the anemic charge weight. Maybe I should have tried to pull one before posting so I could contribute that piece of crucial data... the dang things are crimped tightly enough I can't get them out. Maybe they would come loose during recoil though so I guess loading up all six is a bad idea for this batch.

Thanks for all the help. Hopefully I'll have a range report within the next week or so if my schedule permits.

I think I'll return the remainder of my 230 grain bullets though in favor of something that is at least 240 or 250 grain, and most importantly, made with a cannelure.

While I'm at it, I think I should probably invest in a good reloading manual for once rather than using others' recipies. Any suggestions? I'm done being impatient with the reloading. It was a lot easier with .357 mag than it is with .454 Casull.

 

[RidgwayCO]

I used QuickLOAD to predict your load's performance. Assuming a COL of 1.680" and a barrel length of 7.5", QuickLOAD computes a muzzle velocity of 1483 fps, with 83.5% of the powder burned before the bullet leaves the barrel. It also says that the powder fills 77% of the available case volume (area under the bullet). Based on what I see in my reloading manuals (Speer #14 and Hornady #6), the computed velocity is probably a little optimistic.

IMHO, I don't think you have anything to worry about. I've seen a lot of less efficient loads using 2400 that people swear by... And if you're worried about "detonation", quite a few people consider it an "urban legend" in handgun rounds.

 

[noylj]

You are simply in-between .45Colt and .45Casull. Loading the Casull down to the Colt level is quite normal for fun and plinking, just as I load my .44 Mag down to .44 Special all the time.
Always best to start low, and you never HAVE to load to full pressure. Enjoy the gun and the loads.

 

[rcmodel]

Any suggestions?

Lyman # 49, or Speer, or Hornady.
Lyman is the best for a broad selection of bullet brands, and jacketed as well as lead bullets in most every caliber.

There's less case volume filled, and thus less pressure in the case.

It has much more to do with the bullet weight then the case volume.
Lighter bullets have less bore friction, and are easier to accelerate to high velocity from a dead start, because -- ahhh - they are lighter.
So you use more powder to reach the same pressure with light bullets.

A simple learning experiment:
Hit a light soccer ball with your fist as hard as you can.
Now hit a heavy bowling ball with your fist as hard as you can.

Now do you understand?

rc

 

[Iron Sight]

Since there is no cannelure to roll crimp into it might be interesting to fire all but the last round in the cylinder and then measure the overall length of the last round and see how much it has expanded? (Crimp Jump) might even measure before the last round is fired?

 

[OldMac]

RCModel: That is not good advice. I nearly broke my hand on the bowling ball.

 

[Grumulkin]

I have shot bullets with no crimp in both a 454 Casull and a 460 S&W Magnum. If you don't have a good crimp the bullets are guaranteed to move but a Lee Factory Crimp Die solved that problem for me.

 

[SimplyComplicated]

Grumulkin your experience seems to mirror what I just stumbled upon by accident. I can't seem to pull these bullets even when I'm trying my hardest. That factory crimp die is pretty awesome. It should have come standard with the carbide die set, but it was an add on in this caliber (I guess because it's less important at 45 long loadings).

As soon as I've tested a few of these, I think I'll try loading one in all six and shooting the first five, then measuring #6 with a caliper to check OAL. I'm not sure I won't find the OAL stayed constant, especially at the reduced load that I (inadvertently) created. This sounds like a nice intermediate load too.

Next step will be to figure out a higher performance load at 240 or 250 grains (call me crazy, but sometimes I like recoil), and then perhaps to look into loading some 45 long cartridges with plated bullets for plinking.

I wish I had posted all of this before I embarked on this adventure. I guess I learn more from failure though .

 

[kludge]

230gr XTP is a BAD IDEA from a Casull. That bullet is intended for use in a .45 ACP at just over half the velocity.

The bullet may come apart in the forcing cone (jacket/core separation).

The 250gr XTP .45 Colt bullet with a cannelure can be used with Unique/Universal loads, but for use with 2400, even a light load with the 230XTP, I would say is VERY dangerous.

I use 240gr and 300gr XTP/Mag bullets and 2400 in my Casull. I prefer the 300gr.

If you want to use the 230XTP get some Trail Boss, IMO.

 

[kludge]

This from Freedom Arms web site:

TIP #4: AFTER REFERRING TO YOUR FAVORITE RELOADING MANUAL.
An important fact to remember while loading above 1400 F.P.S.. The construction of the bullet is very important. The intent of the final loaded round is also important, and needs to be considered also. Most commercially made pistol bullets available today are designed for expansion at velocities below 1400 F.P.S. Using bullets above this velocity results in poor accuracy, because the bullets can not withstand the higher pressures generated at these higher velocities. The deformation of the bullets base when fired results in poor accuracy. The higher velocities also cause bullet jacket separation and bullet weight loss, during uncontrolled expansion. When the pressure is high enough the jacket could separate from the bullet in the cylinder, or in flight.

emphasis added

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I highly doubt with the charge weight he used the bullet will get close to 1,400 fps, probably not even 1,300 fps so I see no problem there either.

 

[jeepmor]

I'd shoot em. They appear safe from a specification level on the powder. 0.001" on the wrongly spec'd bullet is not going to produce a dangerous condition, but it might be for some sloppy groups.

If they give you an issue, stop and pull the rest.

 

[sansone]

since you loaded 100 of them, start pulling. I don't see them as dangerous, just a mistake

 

[Harley Quinn]

The experience of bullets growing out of the case is not the norm in bullet movement, it is going inward and changing the pressures...
Same as feeding into a semi auto, the bullet moving into the case

Pressure can go up quite a bit...Shoot them imho...Not high recoil item imho, lighter bullet not crimped as hard less pressure, you will get the feel of the hammer, trigger and handling, if doing what I mentioned one round at a time of maybe 2 When doing 2 you make it so you don't know when it will fire, you will see if you are flinching or bucking
Regards

 

[RidgwayCO]

With semiautos, the main fear is bullet setback (being pushed deeper into the case) due to their hitting the feed ramp on the way into the chamber. This causes pressures to increase, possibly to a dangerous degree. This is countered by a tight bullet/case fit, and not by using a hard crimp.

Revolvers on the other hand (especially lightweight ones), can act as very efficient "inertial bullet pullers" which results in the bullet COL increasing. The main threat here is that the round grows so much that it now protrudes from the front of the cylinder and ties up the gun, rendering it useless until the bullet can be pushed back enough to free up the action. This is usually countered by using a firm roll crimp into a cannelure.

The two lightest big bore revolvers that I'm familiar with, the S&W M296 (18.5oz) and M396 Airlite Ti (18oz), both have maximum bullet weight warnings of 200gr, to help prevent this sort of thing from happening. I've personally shot loads using 240gr lead bullets in each with no ill effects, but I ensured a firm roll crimp was used. YMMV.

 

[snuffy]

230gr XTP is a BAD IDEA from a Casull. That bullet is intended for use in a .45 ACP at just over half the velocity.

The bullet may come apart in the forcing cone (jacket/core separation).

Bee ess! I just don't see how that could happen. That cut & paste from freedom arms is lawyer speak CYA.

What you are saying is the pressure would have to punch a hole in the solid copper bottom of the 230 XTP bullet. The XTP is NOT an open bottom bullet, it's open on the front.

Come apart in the air, in flite? While the cassul is a brute of a revolver, it doesn't produce enough velocity to self-destruct a hollow point bullet. Especially the tough Hornady XTP.

On target performance could be quite good, all the way to terrible. Paper targets, that is. On game it would be a very bad choice, it IS made to expand at much lower velocities, so it would fragment and fail to penetrate.

Shoot 'em, but watch for the bullet creeping forward due to recoil from the preceding bullets.