AD costs US a Gold Medal (merged threads)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh for crying out loud.

Emmons' strategy for getting on target, starting at 12 o'clock and coming down into the bullseye is not risky, nor is the action of placing one's finger on the trigger as you're moving into the bullseye in order to take up some of the slack.

This is something that is done by competitive shooters the world over, ranging across disciplines from 50 meter rifle to IPSC.

Guys like Emmons fire more rounds in a year than most people on this forum will shoot in a lifetime, and much of the uninformed criticism in this thread reflects the difference between an Olympic-caliber competitor and your average gun owner.

His technique had nothing to do with what happened, and I'll explain why:

Emmons is shooting at the absolute peak of competitive rifle shooting, at one of the most prestige sporting events in the world of competitive shooting. Competing at that level is one of the most mentally demanding tasks undertaken by any human being, and maintaining the discipline to make shot-after-shot-after-shot, the majority of which must hit a ten ring the size of a period at the end of a sentence, all while the entire freaking world is watching places levels of stress on the shooter that are, frankly, mind boggling.

On top of that, Emmons was dealing with an added burden of stress from his mistake at the Olympics four years ago when he accidentally cross-fired on another target. In essence, he had all of the stress from both this year's Olympics, as well as the games four years ago weighing very heavily on his mind, and all of it resting on one freaking shot!

The worst day that you've ever had at the office multiplied 100 times pales in comparison to the stress that Olympic-level competitive shooters are expected to manage.

Long story short: This has nothing to do with the physical technique he employs for shooting the rifle, nor does it have anything to do with the equipment he's using.

He had four years of stress weighing on the outcome of a single rifle shot, and unfortunately the result was a bad shot.

Matt is to be commended for being one of the best in the world. The least the American shooting community can offer him is a bit of sympathy, rather than puerile and ignorant arm-chair "analysis."
 
I agree with Justin. Even the best shooter can flinch under pressure and it sounds like dude flinched. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Well this degraded rapidly...:scrutiny:

Putting one's finger on the trigger as they are "coming onto the bullseye" is hardly negligent. Does it allow for a competitive error? Yes. Is it dangerously negligent? No.

How many dicussions on this board about tactical shooting involve discussion of trigger reset without removing the finger from the trigger as accepted practice?

The pressure-cooker that is the Olympics obviously got to this guy. Twice.
 
Matt is to be commended for being one of the best in the world. The least the American shooting community can offer him is a bit of sympathy, rather than puerile and ignorant arm-chair "analysis."
Roger that.

Some of y'all should be ashamed of yourselves. But I suspect that's not likely to happen.
 
OK all you dictionary thumpers, listen up. Common sense abounds here:

The term "accidental" or "negligent" when coupled with "discharge" generally infers that some kind of unsafe action or handling of a firearm has taken place prior to the discharge. There certainly do not appear to be any safety violations in this case, as the guy was clear to shoot and pointing his firearm in a safe direction. It was just a bad shot - I don't consider that an AD or ND at all. Especially a negligent one...

Are some of you actually suggesting that every time you miss your intended target, an AD/ND has occurred? If that's the case, there must be thousands of these disasters taking place daily at every shooting range in America. Shame on you all for being so unsafe... :rolleyes:

Heck, I've had similar experiences when bench shooting some of my rifles with 3-4 pound triggers (can't imagine ounces); as I'm holding on the target and taking up slack, sometimes the shot breaks a little before I expect it to. After years of experience on military, LE and civilian ranges alike, I've never seen anyone disciplined or thrown off a line just for that. Now, if you flag other shooters, fire before or after certain commands are given, or fail to clear your weapons when instructed, that's a different story. But classifying this poor guy's miss as an AD or ND is just plain ignorant.
 
Last edited:
Matt is to be commended for being one of the best in the world. The least the American shooting community can offer him is a bit of sympathy,

+1

I can only speak from conventional bullseye experience, but putting pressure on the trigger before you've achieved perfect sight alignment is the only way to ensure an uninterrupted trigger pull and execute the perfect shot. If you've got the perfect sight picture and then start moving the trigger, you're going to move the sights.

I think he deserves tremendous credit for coming back as far as he did. I've shot at Perry, but I can't even begin to imagine the pressure at that level.
 
Eric F said:
He isnt in the army at the olympics! I am not in the Army! Army policy means nothing to me on this topic.

Did he mean to shoot no, did his finger bump the trigger yes. MAkes an accident to me. If your kid spills a glass of milk is a negligence or is it an accident?

Negligence is seperate from accident.
You are in a very small minority. Accidental discharges are typically reserved for unanticipated mechanical issues that cause a firearm to go off when it shouldn't. When a gun goes off because the shooter pulled the trigger at the wrong time ... that's not an accident, that's a negligent discharge.

In this case, rather than characterize it as either an AD or an ND, perhaps it might simply be more accurate to label it a "miss." Or a "poor shot."
 
It is easy to see who the REAL shooters are on this forum. I have shot rifles where the trigger weight was measured in ounces and believe me when you are shooting off-hand with a trigger that light it your concentration slips even the slightest you are in trouble.

I think some of the people making comments should try some serious bull's-eye shooting, you WILL learn very quickly what real pressure is and just might possibly begin to realize something of what Matt was facing. Better yet do some ISU bull's-eye shooting where the target is much smaller than a comparable US bull's-eye target.

My hat is off to Matt, he may not have gotten the gold medal but he did the USA proud by just being there. The comments from those who did get the medals shows the kind of respect he had with his fellow competitors.
 
Archer1945 said:
It is easy to see who the REAL shooters are on this forum.

Isn't Olympic bulls-eye shooting a highly-stylized and hermetic sport that only a vanishingly small percentage of shooters practice? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just wondering why all other far more popular shooting disciplines are less "real."
 
Isn't Olympic bulls-eye shooting a highly-stylized and hermetic sport that only a vanishingly small percentage of shooters practice?

Anyone who's ever seriously competed in any sort of sport has to mentally manage stress. The game is immaterial to having an understanding of the stress management issues that are inherent to competing at the highest levels.
 
Justin said:
Anyone who's ever seriously competed in any sort of sport has to mentally manage stress. The game is immaterial to having an understanding of the stress management issues that are inherent to competing at the highest levels.

I totally agree, but fail to see how this one abstracted shooting discipline is more "real" than others. In fact, it seems to me that trigger-pull weighing a scant few ounces and highly esoteric firearms puts bulls-eye into a quite unreal category.

Nothing wrong with that, many sports are quite abstracted from their roots. So the argument that has been put forth is that practical shooting rules and thin-air shooting sports share the same rules. It seems they do not.

A newly introduced argument is that only "real" shooters shoot in competition with specialized weapons, I think that is a fallacy.
 
You are in a very small minority. Accidental discharges are typically reserved for unanticipated mechanical issues that cause a firearm to go off when it shouldn't. When a gun goes off because the shooter pulled the trigger at the wrong time ... that's not an accident, that's a negligent discharge.
I came up shooting competitively in the early 90's shooting ipsc at the time no one said nd when any one shot one into the berm it was always an ad. Infact on shooting times I think it was Letham and Jerret were in contention for a major match and letham was dq'ed for putting an ad into the berm. Caption on the cover said Letham ad's Thats how I was brought up and thats how I stay. The fact that the ND thing started with the Army in the late 90's has no bearing on me. If we all did everything by the Army standard we would be shooting pistols like crap.(according to how the MP's shoot here at work, oh and their Army instructors for the MP's dont have a clue either.)
 
you know, if I hit a target at 50 meters with iron sights, I would call that "a hit " and grin, not a ND. he hit the target, not a bullseye, but he hit the target. Shame he didn't get gold, he is a better shooter then 99.9% of the shooters on this board.

And I would say shooting a single shot .22 rifle at a bullseye at that level is not easy, anyone who doesn't think it would be stressful, why are you not going out to get gold? If you like another shooting sport better, fine, but don't bash what these guys do.
 
I'm sure all of us have competed at something at one time. We know that the level of anxiety at such a level of competition can interfere with your judgement and physical control. Not much else to say, but it is not an accident, the gun did not malfunction.
 
But to call this a Negligent Discharge is hyperbole in the extreme.

He pulled a shot.

If someone cannot distinguish between pulling a shot and a ND, well, there's no helping 'em.
 
Not much else to say, but it is not an accident, the gun did not malfunction.

Well.................atleast you didnt say it was a ND.......thanks



And to all others if you miss the bulls eye then your negligent too by your own words:banghead:(inflamatory yes but also making a point)
 
I shoot a very similar rifle. An Anschutz 1913. THat might be what he is shooting. The triggers are certainly under 1 pound, usually under 10 ounces. Starting at the 12 and drifting down helps steady your aim and you certainly need to have your finger on or VERY near the trigger to pull when you have your shot. If your finger is outside the trigger guard or far away from the trigger, moving your finger that far will ruin your aim. There is no taking up slack on these guns, you lightly bump the trigger and it will fire. I have done so many times. Practice keeps you from doing it. But that practice may go out the window when you are ONE easy shot from olympic gold.
This was an AD, he was safe and doing things how he was supposed to. Nerves seem to have done him in.
 
Eric, the topic was about an AD. Sorry but I believe we can agree to disagree about what an AD is. He lost because he missed, and then the story made it sound like an AD.

I guess I just set it off. I got on the trigger a little too hard. I didn't feel my finger shaking, but I guess it was. It just hit the trigger, the gun went off and I was like, 'Uh, that's not going to be good. I hope it hit the black.' "

Just admit when you mess up so we can call it a mistake. We aren't all perfect in competition.
 
Weezy said "I would call it an unintentional discharge." and I agree 100 percent.

Anybody who has competed seriously has had them, they are liars if they say they haven't. If there are a few of you perfect types who have gone through a few hundred matches and I don't care which gun type or match type and you haven't done it don't worry about it I have a few extras on my list to make up for your perfection and some of those shots were 9 or 10 ring shots but not near the X ring group I had going. I lost a 200 yard slow fire high power match because of one and a 300 yard rapid fire high power match because of one, both times shooting way over my head, 9 in the X ring and one in the 8 almost touching the 9 ring.

It happens, it happened in the most stressful competition possible. My surprise is that it doesn't happen more and I bet most here would have been very happy to have the AD shot that the critics are knocking. I would have loved it twice because they would have made me a match winner instead of tying for 4th place. Never happened to me in small bore rifle but pistol and high power, you betcha, adrenaline and a split second of lost concentration are interesting things that only happen to us normal people.
 
Just admit when you mess up so we can call it a mistake. We aren't all perfect in competition.
I guess it all comes down to terminology and interprertation. We all miss some times we all pull the gun off target just before the shot. In my mind its an accident a mistake but not negligent......I guess to others negligent is their discription of what happened.
Same things happens when ever there is a thread on alcohol and guns, drinking to som means getting hammered drinking to others means going out and getting a as in 1 beer. Do the definitions really matter here.........not really, what does matter is that we all are not perfect in competition like just you said.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top