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Nolo

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Jul 18, 2007
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Galveston, TX
I'll be getting my first rifle soon. It's gonna be a Saiga 7.62x39mm. The modern AK, straight from Russia, returned to its former glory in the USA.
However, I've been looking at the "next gen" weapons systems, like the SCAR, ACR, and XCR, and I've been wondering...
What would a similarly evolved Kalashnikov look like?
I realize this is a vague and even silly question, and that those rifles aren't straight evolutions of the M16/AR, but take features from many weapons.
However, they fundamentally are designed to fit the same niche as the AR.
It is my belief that the AK fills a slightly different niche.
So, asking again a question that pretty much defies my designer sense and rigid problem-solving areas of my brain, what would an evolved AK look like?
Or, maybe do I have it wrong?
Is the ACR/SCAR/XCR the midpoint of the AR and AK (with a few steps forward)?
Mostly just musings, but an interesting thought to me.
 
Nolo I'll be getting my first rifle soon. It's gonna be a Saiga 7.62x39mm. The modern AK, straight from Russia, returned to its former glory in the USA.
However, I've been looking at the "next gen" weapons systems, like the SCAR, ACR, and XCR, and I've been wondering...
What would a similarly evolved Kalashnikov look like?

T56SHTF-PKG.jpg
 
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The XCR has quite a bit in common with the AK. The bolt carrier rigidly attached to the gas piston with the recoil spring nested in it immediately got my attention.
 
this is what the modern day AK looks like, chambered in 5,56 also chambered in 5,45 and 7,62

fa_ar_ak100_2.jpg

fa_ar_ak100_3.jpg
 
Part of the glory of the AK system is the KISS principle, or the old proverb "the best is the enemy of good enough." To trick it out with all kinds of crudola that can break defeats the whole purpose.
 
Problem with putting all that stuff on an ak is the front end is already heavy. I had just an ultimak and aimpoint on my front end w/ a folding stock and it was very front heavy.

To answer your question.. nothing. The rifles listed are WAY above the price point that the AK was ever meant to be. A new ak would be nearly the same as an old AK with slightly more tight specs and chambered for a longer range round. AK74?
 
:uhoh: traditionalist are unhappy ... :evil:




Front heavy? Maybe, but I removed the VFG and relocated the Scout light with a push button.
My rifle is not front heavy and the Micro T-1 weighs virtually nothing at all :cool:
 
I agree with keeping AKs simple, however all the rails and tactical accessories are important in keeping the AK from becomeing obsolete, and making it a flexible, adaptable weapon.

If you asked me what an advanced AK was, aside from the AK-74, I would say the Sig 55x series and the Finnish Rk 62/95 TP.

There are many AK derivatives out there, some more obvious than others.
 
lol not unhappy! its your gun do with it as you please! i laugh everytime i see that picture though!!!

the new AKs are chambered in 5,56 nato. im pretty sure the 5,45 is no longer in use by the miltary thats why its being surplused over here.
 
The thing is, I think the AK is supposed to be fullbore... 6.8 at the smallest.
That's just what feels right on an AK to me.
Those other calibers... 5.45, 5.56, 5.8, they all don't fit the character of the AK.
As for an AK with some rails added on and simple polymer stocks, that makes hardly an advancement in the true nature of a rifle.
The XCR, ACR and SCAR all take the M16/M4/AR-15 concept and run with it down the road a bit: lightweight, able to mount all sorts of crud, lots of options, break-open action, rifle-oriented made for the elite (not that there's anything wrong with that), I can go on and on.
The AK is different. Moderate velocity, big bore, high mass-induced stopping power (and recoil), machine-gun oriented, basically just an improved sumbmachine gun (but a damn good one...).
I'm just conceptualizing what that would look like if you moved it, from conception (not after the fact, like everyone else has done). down the road a bit...
 
the russians stopped using the 7,62 round around 1974 when they adopted the 5,45 round which has been standard issue up untill they started using the 5,56 nato.. so really the 7,62 round hasnt been standard issue in like 34 years!:what:
 
I think polymer furniture is as advanced as the AK should go. And I mean the K-Var furniture, not that Tapco garbage. I'm pretty sure that 7.62x39 is it's perfect caliber too. Though, to be fair, 5.45x39 is real fun to shoot. The whole .223 AK feels a little too "NATO" for me. I like my commie guns in commie calibers. None of this, "let's Americanize the Kalashnikov." I don't know why Americans feel that they always have to jack up the caliber on a weapon because it doesn't feel strong enough to them. I'm pretty sure an AK will kill anything up to and including a bear. Maybe not in the first shot, but probably within the following 29 shots. I trust Mikhail's original design. If you must make it modern, just put some plastic on it.
 
I don't know why Americans feel that they always have to jack up the caliber on a weapon because it doesn't feel strong enough to them. I'm pretty sure an AK will kill anything up to and including a bear. Maybe not in the first shot, but probably within the following 29 shots. I trust Mikhail's original design. If you must make it modern, just put some plastic on it.

it was the russians that copied us! when we went to the 5.56 they thought we knew something they didnt so they designed the 5,45...
 
Funny that the 5N7 is actually more deadly than the M855...
Anyway, nobody's really getting the question, anyway. Which is okay, I kinda figured that'd happen. What I'm thinking of is rather particular.
 
lol not unhappy! its your gun do with it as you please! i laugh everytime i see that picture though!!!

the new AKs are chambered in 5,56 nato. im pretty sure the 5,45 is no longer in use by the miltary thats why its being surplused overhere.
the russians stopped using the 7,62 round around 1974 when they adopted the 5,45 round which has been standard issue up untill they started using the 5,56 nato.. so really the 7,62 round hasnt been standard issue in like 34 years!


The Russians never issued or used 5.56 NATO as standard ammo. All Russian AKs are either 7.62 or 5.45. The 5.56 AKs or the "century series" was made for export only. The other AK in 5.56 one sees in combat are fielded by X-Warsaw pact countries that are now part of NATO. At no time did the Russian adapt 5.56 as their standard rifle ammo. The 7.62 is still being produced and issued to some of the front line units especially the interior ministry and police units that operates in Chechnya. The Russian have discovered the same thing as we did in Iraq - in urban warfare where engagement range is limited. It is better to have a slow and big bullet then a fast and small one. 7.62 might be old but it is still one of the most effective and useful round in existence today. Ps H2O I love the gun :D.
 
The Russians have considered switching back to the 7.62 recently. They've found themselves going to that caliber more than the 5.45. Either way, they still field the 7.62 in a very significant chunk of their forces. Other countries still have it on-hold as well, even though they may be using 5.45 or 5.56 in their AK variants.

also, you don't need much on an AK. A bottom rail, a top rail, and a side-mount for scopes is all you need to make your AK a do-all weapon, at least from what I've seen.
 
The only really necessary upgrade would be a different grip if you still have the stock broom handle one. That would be as advanced as I would need to take it.
 
well i guess i will take a stab at your orginal question lol.

if the AK where to follow the path of the AR etc i would say it would mostly get cosmatic upgrades. maybe a charging handle on the left side of the rifle like the AK lightning bolt. grip upgrade. and most importantly a sight upgrade (what i think it needs the most lol) maybe an integrated rail system that was rock solid.
 
It seems like the Robinson XCR has ALOT more in common with the AK than the AR mechanically-speaking.

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Problem with putting all that stuff on an ak is the front end is already heavy. I had just an ultimak and aimpoint on my front end w/ a folding stock and it was very front heavy.

Putting that stuff on anything makes it front heavy. Even on ARs and other carbines lacking the AK's gas piston, slapping Surefires, Aimpoints, VFGs, bipods, and other stuff is going to add weight and complexity to the rifle.

With the KAC RIS, RCO, VFG, 3-battery Surefire, and PEQ-2, my M16A4 weighed several pounds more than my Romanian AK clone with a Kobra and VFG. Even after I eventually add a white light to it, the weights will be similar, and I'd rather have the AK, because if I am packing 10 or 11 pounds of rifle, I want it to be something other than poodle shooter.

I would also have to disagree with the notion that upgrading or accessorizing the AK defeats its purpose, and I know Mikhail Kalashnikov and many of the Russian military groups his rifle was assigned to would agree with me. After all, they've done some crazy crap to it themselves, including strapping white lights, lasers, scopes, suppressors, grenade launchers, and other crap to it.

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OMG! It has plastic on it! Surely that boasting look of approval on the creater's face is in jest! He'd never accept anything but the Plain Jane wood stocked version with the milled receiver! Everything else is a fraud, and counter to the design's original intent!

And if you can't understand why I would do this to my own AK:
AKKobraleftside.jpg

It must dumbfound some people that they did this to their own design:
aks74u-ts.jpg


"Modernized" is the "M" in "AKM," so that means that a modernized AK would by necessity require the stamped receiver, rather than the milled. I realize that the Galil and the Valmet are sometimes regarded as the best versions of the Kalashnikov, but I disagree with this. The milled receiver offers only slight advantages in accuracy and durability over the stamped receiver while increasing weight and production costs. A milled receiver AK weighs about as much as a carbine version of any of the Big Three MBRs--the M14, FAL, and G3, without the accuracy or the power and range of any of them. Which explains why people choose to carry battle rifles rather than issue the milled AKs in any significant numbers, and is why it was the stamped receiver AKM that earned the AK its reputation for durability and reliability in adverse conditions.

Once you have an AKM, modernizing it is pretty simple. You don't have to, and probably shouldn't, screw with much of the functionality of the rifle, since Mikhail got that part right. The ergonomics and sights leave a lot to be desired. So I replaced the spatula style pistol grip on mine with an M249 style grip that works much better. I also added a folding six-position M4-style ACE stock that allows me to adjust LOP as well as folding it for transportation. These two modifications made it a lot easier to handle and shoot.

Now days, there is even an ambi-safety available for right-handed shooters that have problems coping with the safety that comes with it. I shoot left handed and find the standard safety works very well for me.

Next up is sights. I would prefer a set up like Krebs offers with a fold-down receiver rail mated to their aluminum quad rail set up. This allows an improved rear sight to be mounted near the back of the receiver, increasing sight radius. Mojo ghost ring sights were the best on the market when I bought them, though now days, even better options are becoming available. Any aperture style sight that is adjustable for windage and elevation would be an improvement. Preferably, it would have a BDC feature built in like the rear elevation dial on the A2 or my M1A, and would have night sight inserts. Onto the rail you can now mount anything you need depending on the mission at hand. A red dot or reflex style sight probably suits the use of the AK better than most choices, but I could see a 2x ACOG or one of the low power variables like a 1-4x or 2.5-10, being used as well.

The Surefire is no more prone to failure on an AK than it is an M16 and seems to work well enough on the latter to trust it on the former. If you might be using the rifle at night or in low light, it might make a good addition to the quad rail, even at the expense of a little added weight.

Finally, I like the VFG for carbines that might be engaged primarily in close to moderate range work. I find that it does help me get on target faster and helps me control muzzle rise. And it is simply more comfortable and natural, so I put a Tango Down on my AK. Be aware, however, that the rock-n-lock motion of the AK's magazines requires the grip to be located farther out than some find comfortable. I have a long enough reach that I can put it out far enough to not interfere with the 30 round magazines, but the 40 rounders are a tight fit. If you shoot right-handed, you might just want to use the magazine as a VFG to pull the rifle in. As a left-handed shooter, I find I have a tendency to get my thumb whacked by the charging handle.

Most or all of these mods exist in some form or another, and as mentioned, many have been tried in combat by the Russians.

Also, the 7.62x39 is still reportedly in demand by certain elements of Russian special operations and counter-terror groups who favor its increased lethality and effectiveness, as well as its ability to break some forms of cover better than the 5.45mm round. Until I see an AK in 6.8 SPC or similar, I almost refuse to acknowledge that the rifle was ever chambered for something other the 7.62x39. Mikhail seems to approve of almost every modification that has been done to his rifle, save for chambering it in 5.45mm and making them out of glass to be filled with the Vodka that share his name.

"Tis weapon of war not to be filled with spirits!"
 
I think it really needs a complete overhaul. The beauty of the AK is that it is stupid simple, ultra reliable and dirt cheap. The various "improved" AK derivatives don't have those same attributes. What is needed is a new rifle that retains the basic piston/bolt carrier design and uses a stamped receiver with lots of room for dirt and grime to be pushed aside, yet has a rail all the way from the back of the receiver to the front of the gas tube where good iron sights or optics could be easily and securely mounted. This would mean doing away with the current dust cover design and probably going to a two part receiver, but the design would still have to be extremely cheap, simple and reliable.
 
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