advice for my first AR-15 Bushmaster vs. DPMS

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This is the best read about internet hype and the people who push it. Don't drink the Kool-Aid... Pages 4 & 5 are the best information out there.
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Chad, that thread primarily dealt with claims about Spikes tactical. DPMS & Bushmaster don't even build to the same quality level as Spikes. They don't even claim to HPT/MPI their bolts at all. Bushmaster even admits that they only batch test their barrels.

While S&W doesn't test their barrels they do individually test their bolts which is much more critical. Companies like BCM, PSA, Daniel Defense, Spikes, LMT, and Colt actually individually HPT/MPI both their barrels & their bolts.

Kwelz has posted pictures in other threads of cracked DPMS lowers, where the lowers were anodized & shipped out despite being cracked. I've personally looked at hundreds of DPMS & Bushmaster rifles while I was working in a high volume gun shop. I've seen Bushmaster's inconsistent carrier key staking - ranging from good (very rarely), to poor (most common), to not at all (frequently). I've never seen a DPMS with proper carrier staking from the factory; instead it varied from poor to non existent. I've seen the tight chambers on both of those brands too. I've held their uppers on delrin bench blocks while the gunsmith drove out the gas tube pins so could take out the barrels, and run a finish reamer in the chambers like the factory should have done. I've seen one Bushmaster with a chamber so tight the finish reamer was useless so it had be sent back to the factory for replacement. That's not to say they don't screw up and put out a decent rifle from time to time.

Call it kool-aid drinking if you want, but it doesn't change what I've seen.

S&W may cut a few corners in non-critical areas, but at least their assembly is top notch, and they maintain quality in the critical areas. Companies like LMT, Colt, BCM, Noveske, and DD are quality in every way. The PSA lower build kits I used late last year were top quality, but I can't comment on anything else they make from first hand experience. The Spikes uppers & rifles I've handled all passed the visual inspection for build quality, but my experience with them is otherwise limited.

ETA: Sorry for the rant. My experience just shows that S&W and some others are much better rifles than DPMS & Bushmaster for the same or slightly more money.
 
Everything on the internet is true

wford,I have experience with quite a few ar brands. My dad currently owns the exact two you are looking at. I handled them both this weekend. I would prefer the dpms because it has the front gas block that has a rail. The carbon 15 has no back up iron sights which for me is a turn off. I own a stock bushmaster carbine and know one out there could convince me that it is a poor gun. It is my "cold dead hands" gun. I also had an earlier version of the carbon 15 and it was not that good, it had fte problems with all types of ammo. My suggestion would be Dpms if between the two. Now that said all my current ar's are franken builds. I buy the parts I want at the price I want and put it together myself. DO NOT believe these guys on here talking crap on certain brands and claiming other brands are supperior. Bushmaster was king a few years ago, then Stag was all the rage and then Spikes tactical, now it seems Pal. State Armory is the must have. They do have lower right now for 60 bucks....any way I would suggest AR15.com and do some reading over there.:)
 
My experience just shows that S&W and some others are much better rifles than DPMS & Bushmaster for the same or slightly more money.
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dont you own a dpms rifle, but the model you own they build properly?

EDIT: I do not own a dpms.
 
dont you own a dpms rifle, but the model you own they build properly?
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Bryan, you're correct, I do own a DPMS LR-308. As I've stated before the difference in build quality between DPMS LR (AR-10 type) line, and their AR-15 type line is so great it's like two different companies build them.

I should have clarified that it's DPMS AR-15 line which I've seen so many issues with. In the context of the thread title asking about a first AR-15 I assumed that would be clear. You know what they say about assuming - sorry I wasn't clear about in my previous post. :D
 
thats what i thought i remembered.

i also have rifles (actually these are ar15's) that are built above their companies reputation for whatever reason. (i.e. well staked carriers, staked castle nuts, 3.63oz buffers, etc etc) ive also recently checked the headspace on both with a set of actual g.i. armorers gages owned by a bud that wont say where he gottum (he gottum in okinawa). i was suprised that both still reject the field and the nogo gages and will still just snick closed on the go and a .0004 foil stock.

folks tell me that rifles made by the company that made my 2 do not do the above things that mine have and they definitely came from the factory that way. my son bought them for me, brand new still in the cardboard.
 
Bryan, my DPMS LR isn't anomaly. I've handled dozens, and shot a couple other than mine. The build quality on the LR line is consistently good. It's a very weird contrast.
 
my DPMS LR isn't anomaly.
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i'm currently advised that my 2 are. ya, its hilarious.

i am smitten by the .308 ar system, and the odds on favorites to end up in my safe are the dpms rifles, so its good to know.

i dont know how anyone can not want a .308 ar rifle. high capacity, semi auto, tamed recoil,,, accuracy on par with the finest bolt guns that are reasonably available to the civvy public..... whats not to like!!!!
 
ugaarguy, I guess I posted that thread so people can understand that not everything they read on forums are correct or even close to truthful (READ THIS: I AM NOT CALLING YOU A LIAR). I understand that DPMS (I don't own one) has problem in the QC, but how many rifles have they sold? How many are still running? How many owners are very satisfied with their rifles that they shoot maybe a couple hundred rounds through a year? How many predator hunters own and have great results with their .223/5.56 DPMS ARs?
 
Chad1043 - I'm currently in the market for an AR too so this thread has grabbed my interest. To date I have owned exactly 1 AR - an old Olympic carbine I picked up and played around with a few years ago then sold.
Anyhow, from my point of view I'm not looking for what will hold up to just a couple hundred rounds a year for awhile. That might be all I end up using it for or it might not. What I want is the best, most reliable, most durable rifle I can get within my budget. I'm looking into Spikes, PSA, and BCM mid-lengths (which is a step above entry-level) and I don't want to get this thread sidetracked, but I'd think the OP would also want as much rifle as possible for his money. So he asked for the comparison between DPMS and Bushmaster and was told to heavily consider the M&P Sport over both. The guys telling him that feel that they're doing him a favor.
 
Like I stated above, we have 4 DPMS's in the family and they are all very good rifles to shoot and all of them are properly staked, I just laugh when I see some of the postings going on about DPMS. They are very accurate, in fact one of mine is my coyote and prairie dog rifle. I wouldn't own one if they didn't work like all the rest of my collection...
 
Goon, I hear you and I see you. My point is to ask the question of what are the REAL numbers. How many DPMS rifles were sold last year? How many failed? How many M&P rifles were sold last year? How may failed? It is internet Voodoo... Go to PredatorMasters.com and ask how many guys love their DMPS rifles?
 
Thank you everybody for the input. I am looking at the PSA kits and basically have my mind made up that's the way I want to go. I am nervous about putting it together though. Is all I need the upper, bolt n carrier, and stripped lower then?
 
This is Palmetto's site. I've been looking at their stuff hard lately but am also thinking hard on Spikes and Bravo Company. I'd like to try BCM I think but at the prices Palmetto has and with the specs they list, they're very tempting.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/
 
Hmm... I just bought a Rock River Arms .458 SOCOM plus a .223 upper. I opted for RRA because I read on the forums that they're one of the best. Did I err?:)
 
It is internet Voodoo
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Nope. :)

It's about personal experience and the desire to pass on information. Look, every manufacturer occasionally builds a lemon. What some of us older posters are pointing out, is that some manufacturers hit the mark more than others. DPMS and Bushmaster are not in that category. I'm pleased that your sample of one or four work for you. But having spent several years in a LGS, my sample size is a bit larger. ;)

Add in the fact that the OP has a budget (like we all do), he can do better than those two for the same money.

Please note that nobody said anything like "Cowboy up and spend more money!", but instead, for the same amount of cash, get a better brand. :)
 
Al, I understand you are very knowledgeable. I have no idea what a LGS is. But in your vast database, how many DPMS rifles have been made? How many have failed? How many Colts have been made? How many have failed?
 
These threads are ridiculous. I heard from my brother's, dog walker's, cousin once removed, that DPMS rifles blow up after the 547th round, and that's definitely the truth.
 
Well, lets take the analogy to a different place. Automobiles. :)

The higher end AR-15 makers are like higher end automobile makers. Cost a bit more and have fewer reliability problems over all.

But, I get along just fine with my mid level CMMG uppers. Lots of rounds down range, couple of classes, no issues.

Several friends own high end automobiles that run and run. I get along just fine with my mid level truck. Runs and runs, no issues.

Place I used to work had three SUVs from the same crappy company that broke down routinely. One right after another.

That would be a clue. ;)

Large gun store (LGS) I worked at for several years stocked Bushmaster, S&W and recently LMT.

DPMS rifles I saw at the local range.

No experience on RRA.

A majority of the time, rifles not working were Bushmasters, DPMS or parts guns. Problems were too tight chambers, gas issues and crappy magazines.

That would be a clue. ;)

And the rifle you have might be great. All I'm saying, is that for recommendations, it's about selecting companies with a history of success rather that companies with a history of producing crappy products. :D
 
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