After the Bang

[herrwalther]

Have been having a recurring thought over the past few days. Here on THR we talk a lot about leading up to defensive firearm use. Firearm selection, bullet type and weight etc. But not many threads about dealing with the aftermath. Namely the police interaction involved after a defensive firearm use.

Mostly I am looking for input from those who have been involved in a stateside defensive use of a firearm. Did you call 911 or someone else? What details did the dispatcher ask for? Interactions with the police officer on scene etc.

Also interested in hearing from law enforcement. How do you like to handle a situation of apparent self defense use? Detail such as do you want the defender to place the firearm on the ground? In holster? With you? Safed? Unloaded? etc.

Since this is in STT, let us keep the legal after aspects of defensive gun use to a minimum. I am mostly focused on the interaction with police aspect.

 

[flathats]

Following for now....

 

[stoky]

The Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network disseminates and discusses a lot of info on this. Worth a years "subscription" for the info alone IMO.

 

[Sam1911]

Actually, this subject DOES get good discussion from time to time.

Here's a pretty thorough thread on it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=493380

Usually what happens is that someone trots out the old "Don't Talk to The Police" line, and we take a few pages to point out why that might be a very bad idea.

 

[stoky]

Rather than "Don't Talk to The Police", more concisely is be very (very) careful what you say, and more importantly, what you don't say to the police. They are professionals at tailoring context.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Actually, this subject DOES get good discussion from time to time.

Here's a pretty thorough thread on it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=493380...

The topic does come up with some regularity. See also the following threads:

1. What to Do after a Self Defense Encounter
   
   
2. When Can I Shoot, beginning at post 50
   
   
3. Teenage Robber Dead, Shot by Good Samaritan
   
   
4. Draw but not fire...is that necessarily a crime? (in FL specifically), beginning at post 25
   
   
5. Duty to report use of lethal force in self-defence?
   
   
6. Don't Talk to the Cops - Videos

See also this article and this article by attorney Andrew Branca.

 

[danez71]

I'll let Frank and Sam correct me....

You don't want to be un-cooperative but you don't want to say much; only enough to be positive to you.

Ideally, and I use that term loosely, if its in your home,,,,,,

You'll want to point to the busted door/window and convey that the perp said/you felt you were going to be killed and that YOU JUST WANTED HIM TO STOP.

Something like:

' I was watching TV and he smashed through the back door (point to it) and came after my with a pipe/knife/gun saying something like "you're gunna die / your gunna meet your maker".

I got my gun and told him to get out/leave/don't hurt me etc.. and he said I'm the overlord and need to eat your brain to get back home to the planet Nebula".

I just wanted him to stop!

I'm too upset.... I need to talk to my significant other/relative/lawyer.


Not something like "I knew I had to kill him because he was going to hurt me".


"I just wanted him to stop. " is the phrase I'm trying to drill into my wife. and not anything like 'kill him' such as you 'tried to kill him' or 'I knew I had to kill him to make him stop'.
(Frank, please comment on that this last part. I realize you're not offering legal service. Just looking for what you're thought is base on your knowledge and past experience.)

 

[Frank Ettin]

..."I just wanted him to stop. " is the phrase I'm trying to drill into my wife. and not anything like 'kill him' such as you 'tried to kill him' or 'I knew I had to kill him to make him stop'.
(Frank, please comment on that this last part. I realize you're not offering legal service. Just looking for what you're thought is base on your knowledge and past experience.)

Personally, I like what Massad Ayoob recommends: "That person attacked me." Don't open up a discussion of what you did. It'll be too easy to get tied up in knots.

The "best practices" response are mentioned in the [*]What to Do after a Self Defense Encounter thread. Andrew Branca also goes into some suggested responses in this article.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Also, Have insurance. Its cheap. I have insurance that comes with my membership to the gun club i belong to. Dues are 150/yr. So I cant imagine the insurance would be much more. If you're going to carry you owe it to yourself to have good representation should the need arise.

 

[danez71]

Personally, I like what Massad Ayoob recommends: "That person attacked me." Don't open up a discussion of what you did. It'll be too easy to get tied up in knots.The "best practices" response are mentioned in the [*]What to Do after a Self Defense Encounter thread. Andrew Branca also goes into some suggested responses in this article.

Good point.

Just 1 or 2 short sentences.... and that's it. Don't get into discussions.

(Plus: I need to talk to my significant other/relative/lawyer. That's IMO)

DONT TRY TO TALK YOUR WAY OUT OF IT!!!!!!

I cant emphasize that enough.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I read this a few months back on The Smith And Wesson Forum I didn't write it but it seems to make sense.

This is a distillation of the best advice I’ve heard on this topic over the years.

Getting arrested after a SD incident isn't the big deal, getting convicted is. Here are some things you can do to help protect yourself.

Before A Shooting Occurs
The last thing you want is some huge post count anywhere on the net in which every other post is about how you will have no mercy on BGs. Watch the content of your posts.

When A Shooting Occurs
The best advice I've gotten from these threads is that your hands had better be spotless you had better not have done anything to escalate the situation and it would be best that the local cops not have a half dozen "Man W/ a gun" incident reports on you.
Comport yourself accordingly

Post Shooting

Best advice I've heard
1. Call the police

2. Report the Shooting W/out implicating yourself (“There was" not” I did")

3. Do NOT have the gun in you hand when the cops show up

4. Give the cops a victim statement “He attacked me I was forced to shoot"

5. Get checked out by EMS

6. you're pressed for a statement tell the cops that you're really shook up right now & that you'd like some time to confer with your lawyer before making a statement.

Odds are the police will take you into custody. Once you’re in custody make a short “I’m the victim statement” IE “Officer that man tried to kill me, I was forced to shoot in self defense”. Tell them you’d really like EMS to check you out (You’ll need it anyway) and that you really want to cooperate but you need time to get your wits about you and you’d like to consult your attorney, then shut up.

If they really try to push you into making a statement get concerned, at that point you really need to calmly and firmly assert your rights. If at any point in the proceedings they Mirandize you, go into full defense mode and do not say another word without your lawyer present.

After you have consulted your lawyer have him prepare a statement and give that to the police at no time should you agree to an interview of any kind with out your attorney

 

[Jim K]

If you kill or wound anyone, anywhere in the U.S. outside your home (and maybe inside), you can expect to be arrested, and have your gun confiscated. The uniforms are not going to decide your case or care about who you are or what arguments you have. Make the simple "I was attacked...." statement, then shut up, except for name and address. Don't be hostile, don't yell about police brutality, don't rant about your rights. All that does is PO the cops and doesn't help a bit.

(Needless to say, don't follow the advice of one poster who said that he would kill the police rather than let them take his gun - those kind do us no good.

If you carry a gun, I strongly recommend you have an attorney on retainer. And make sure you memorize his/her phone number; when you are arrested your electronic gadgets, notebooks, etc. will be taken from you and held by the police. You might not like to think of being arrested - after all, you are a good guy. But if you use that nice shiny new gun, you almost certainly WILL BE arrested, so get used to the idea.

Real life is not a Wild West movie. The sheriff doesn't pat the guy in the white hat on the back, say "good shoot", and buy him a drink. It doesn't work that way. (It never really did even in the Old West, but that is the movie idea.)

Jim

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I remember another post on this topic that I read years ago, I think it's probably in one of the sticky threads in post 6 but I have no idea how to search it.

The poster was a cop who had investigated dozens of self defense shootings and he said the problem wasn't getting people to talk, the problem getting them to shut up.

He said that what he saw most often was that the person was so overwhelmed by the circumstances that they started to try to justify their actions to the police and sometimes in the heat of the moment they'd say something the wrong way or get their facts mixed up and get themselves into trouble that could have been avoided.

He stressed that you have to be very disciplined to make the most bare bones statement possible.

"That man tried to kill me." "I was forced to shoot in self defense." "I really don't want to say anything else until I talk to my lawyer" and that's about it.

 

[lemaymiami]

All of the above are valid points. For the very real personal consequences of a self defense shooting (here we're talking emotional/psych consequences...) the best info I ever read was meant for police officers but is well worth reading by anyone that might someday have survived an armed encounter.... The book is titled Street Survival and the particular chapter is titled Afterburn.... The book is a bit dated now, I got a copy in the early eighties a few years after being involved in a fatal shooting on the job as a young cop. That particular chapter really caught my attention since I'd actually gone through many of the things they were talking about. In my case it took more than a year to get my head back in place. Then began a long learning process that lead to work in police training and a commitment on my part to be at the side of any of my officers going down the same road.... Years later I ran training for a 100 man department and was involved in making policy for officers involved in shooting situations. All of that after I very nearly quit police work after my own shooting incident....

 

[Bobson]

Also, Have insurance. Its cheap. I have insurance that comes with my membership to the gun club i belong to. Dues are 150/yr. So I cant imagine the insurance would be much more. If you're going to carry you owe it to yourself to have good representation should the need arise.

Lawyer insurance? What makes you think you'll get "good representation?"

 

[Jim K]

Legal representation on gun issues can be problematical; I would hope that any club offering insurance would make sure that the lawyer they sign up would not be anti-gun. (Yes, I know a lawyer is supposed to offer the best representation he/she can and not let personal feelings interfere, but I doubt that the lawyer who once told me that gun owners should all be shot would be the best choice to represent me in a self-defense shooting.)

That is why I recommend asking others about lawyers, meeting with prospects, and choosing one who is on our side (other factors do enter, though). Then put that lawyer on retainer so you have a person you know if you have to call in an emergency.

Don't be intimidated by doctors or lawyers into thinking they are doing you a big favor by talking to you. You are hiring them, not the reverse. You have a right to act as if you are an executive hiring a new employee and interview them accordingly.

Jim

 

[Sam1911]

Then put that lawyer on retainer so you have a person you know if you have to call in an emergency.

I've heard the advice to put a lawyer on retainer many times, but I've heard from lawyers that that's not really necessary. You should know a good lawyer, experienced in self-defense, speak with him and be comfortable with his ability to represent you well, and should keep his card/number with you so that you can contact him if you ever need to.

But a retainer is not really the appropriate instrument for this purpose. With a retainer, you are either a) expecting his on-going help with some regularly recurring, frequent, or likely to ocurr matter, or b) you're in a situation where you want to secure a specific lawyer's services so that he is agreeing not to be hired to work against you (mostly in industrial/commercial/business situations).

In the case of self-defense representation, most folks will go their whole lives never needing this service, as very very few of us who'd even consider these issues will ever be involved in a self-defense shooting. So we aren't retaining the lawyer's services for some recurrent, common need. (Like Phillip Morris, perhaps, retaining lawyers to fight frequent lung cancer lawsuits, or GM retaining attorneys to fight frequent vehicle safety claims, etc.)

If you're ever involved in a shooting, your attorney will be happy to help you out on his regular fee schedule, regardless of not being "on retainer" ahead of time.

 

[TimSr]

I keep hearing an ad on the radio from National Concealed Carry assoc. for what basically amounts to lawyer insurance by annual membership in case you need ot use your gun. it very inexpensive as you are joining a risk pool with very few payouts. I've thought about it.

 

[Powderman]

Haven't posted in a while, so I hope this is helpful.

For the folks here who don't know me....let's just say that if someone gets shot, I'm one of the guys that respond.

I read that some folks believe that the police are trying to get a statement from you to work up probable cause. Guess what, folks?

There is a human being lying there, either seriously injured or dead as a result of a use of deadly force.

The first thing I will ask is, "Who shot this person?" When I find out that you did, two things will happen really fast:

1. You will be disarmed.
2. You will receive the Miranda v. Arizona admonishment.

Unless it is a REALLY clear cut case of self defense, you can almost bet that you will be talking to detectives. You will be detained--NOT necessarily arrested. (and yes, there is a BIG difference.)

My job is NOT to determine guilt or innocence. I am an Officer of the Court; my duty is to deliver you to the Court (the trier of fact) who will hear the facts of the case. (For someone who uses deadly force, your first hearing will be in front of a Grand Jury. If the Grand Jury returns a true bill of indictment this means that probable cause has been found to indicate that you may have unlawfully used force.)

Your best bet?

First, go talk to the Prosecutor in your jurisdiction. This is the person who can talk to you about the law as it applies to you in that location.

Next, I would recommend that you have a competent attorney on retainer.

Best wishes to all--and I hope that you never use your guns for anything other than punching paper, tin cans, reactive targets, clays, or tasty animals.

 

[Jim K]

"First, go talk to the Prosecutor in your jurisdiction."

I don't think that is good advice, and I don't think the prosecutor will even speak to you directly. The prosecutor is not on your side, he/she wants to get re-elected by putting you in prison. And since the prosecutor is not your attorney, attorney-client privilege doesn't apply and anything you say to the prosecutor can (and likely will) be used against you.

Any advice involving an accused doing his own legwork or trying to build his own defense is bad advice. Hire an attorney and let him/her take it from there. As to a retainer, I respectfully disagree with the idea that you can just pick a lawyer out of the phone book when you need one. First, you probably won't have a phone book and if you do, how do you know who you are getting? Get a lawyer when you are calm and collected, not when you are in a blind panic, scared s***less, and with bars between you and the outside world. Even if you don't think a formal retainer is necessary, make sure the lawyer will be available if needed and that he/she will work for you.

Jim

P.S. If you were told the little story about Mr. Miranda, you have been arrested, and anything you say after that can be used against you. You might even meet a "good cop" who wants to hear about how your reloads blow bodies into little pieces, or who will sympathize about how you have been just itching to get some of those so-and-so's who have brought crime to the town.

Jim

 

[herrwalther]

For the folks here who don't know me....let's just say that if someone gets shot, I'm one of the guys that respond.

This is the kind of response I am hoping to get. My aim with this thread was to get feedback from law enforcement of how they have handled or would like to handle a defensive shooting on site.

First, go talk to the Prosecutor in your jurisdiction. This is the person who can talk to you about the law as it applies to you in that location.

I am with Jim K on this one. For my felony arrest (dropped case, no lose of 2A rights) I barely spoke to anyone outside my defense attorney and the judge very briefly. I was directly told not to talk to the DA. Whom was under the assumption that there was going to be a slam dunk conviction against me. Evidence in my favor mounted and he agreed to not pursue charges.

 

[Powderman]

P.S. If you were told the little story about Mr. Miranda, you have been arrested

Not true.

The Miranda warning is triggered in any case of detention, v. community contact. And, the accepted definition of a detention is simply when a reasonable person does not feel free to leave.

From the other side, the Miranda warning is triggered when a person becomes the focus of an investigation into a criminal act. As an example, let's say that I was responding to a scene of someone trying to pass a forged check. When I contact the person, I will explain the reason for the contact. My first question usually is, "Could you tell me what happened?" If I develop reasonable suspicion, then I will tell the person, "Sir (ma'am), you are now becoming the focus of my investigation. You have the right to remain silent...."

And, let me clarify. The reason that you contact the prosecutor is because they can tell you the law concerning the use of deadly force in your jurisdiction. Of course, your mileage may well vary.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Lawyer insurance? What makes you think you'll get "good representation?"

Its 50k toward a case. 50 k buys a lot of attorney.

 

[lemaymiami]

Yes, anyone involved in a shooting incident is going to need an attorney.... As noted a Miranda warning is only that.... and after you've been read your rights the first thing I'd advise is to answer any questions about your identity (name, address, etc. as well as a one sentence statement "I was attacked...." or something similar) then very politely say I'll be glad to provide a statement after I've spoken with my attorney - then stick to it, period. The urge to explain yourself, the circumstances, and your actions will be nearly overwhelming so speaking with your attorney first is a very good idea....

Now for the attorney part... I'm not a lawyer -but did a career in law enforcement that had me in an out of a lot of courts and provided an opportunity to watch a good number of legal types in action (some very skilled -others barely going through the motions...). The attorney you know (family lawyer, friend, etc.) will be the first individual you'll turn to -but make no mistake you're going to need a practicing criminal attorney (the lawyer you know, if you have a good relationship, should be able to refer you to the one you need....).

Even a small community will have someone that handles criminal matters and actually has a good reputation. Can't tell you how important your decision about that lawyer is going to be.... For guys in law enforcement your first lawyer is going to be whoever your union uses... that has some benefits but also drawbacks since whoever it is has a built in conflict if they also represent the union.... The same goes for any City attorney since their first obligation is to the City... In my case that worked out well after the initial criminal possibilities were ended since my City's interests and my own were in sync (if during a subsequent civil action I was found liable my City was also liable since I was acting for them and not in violation of any law or Department policy... my City was going to be the one paying if there was a loss...).

All of the above is going to occur under very difficult and traumatic circumstances for the individual that's injured or killed another in self defense (even the clearest cut self defense case...). Your family and friends will have a tough time as well. My expectations if I were ever involved in another shooting (once was entirely enough for me....) are that my life would be turned upside down and whatever assets I owned would be going away (and that's if everything went my way....). The double or triple whammy (if there is such a thing) is for your shooting to become a media sensation - all bets are off if that happens and justice for you (or anyone else) might be a dream at best.... Wish it weren't so.

 

[herrwalther]

And, let me clarify. The reason that you contact the prosecutor is because they can tell you the law concerning the use of deadly force in your jurisdiction. Of course, your mileage may well vary.

As something that should be done before a lethal force situation occurs, yes. One of the first things I did when I moved to this part of the state was email the ADA of my county about changes in law from where I lived in the previous county to this one. He was very concise and helpful even if it did take 2 weeks to respond.

The insurance is a great idea. I have been eyeing that package from USCCA for about a year.