Whenever it's your word against his it's a lot easier if your story matches the facts. Assuming you acted within the law, telling the truth is great for your legal situation. It's always great for your credibility and your conscience.
Aftermath of a shooting (my story)
- Thread starter divemedic
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After reading I think that setting up that ambush was what really sent things south and widened the chance to a worse ending. Given the circumstances wouldn't it be safer(legally and physically) to barricade yourself in your house in a position of advantage, and avoid further contact within your power?
MarkDozier
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"THR is all about staying strictly within the confines of the law"
There is legal law and there is moral law. Sometimes they are not the same
There is legal law and there is moral law. Sometimes they are not the same
divemedic
Member
To address the questions:
1 I have posted this before, on TFL, and on the old packing.org site.
2 I waited outside for them, because I felt that by staying outside of the house, I was not going to let them decide the battle by barricading myself inside with my wife and kids. I thought that by engaging them outside, I was choosing the time, place, and method of contact.
3 To JohnKSa: Actually, looking back on it, I still believe deadly force was required, and I hesitated. They SHOT AT US. I guess you are saying that deadly force was not needed because no one was hurt, but I disagree. The only thing preventing anyone from getting hurt was poor marksmanship on the gang's part. It could have easily gone the other way.
As a result of this incident, my new policy means that if I see a weapon in a situation like this again, I am shooting. Period. Think about this: I had anywhere from 5 to 8 goblins in front of me, weapons evident. At least one of them was willing to take a shot. From a tactical standpoint, had they decided to pursue the fight, it would have been possibly an 8 on 3 fight (with one of the three drinking).
Had I waited inside the home, it would have been ugly. In my home, I would not have even had the 2 neighbors to help, and I would have been the only thing between 8 gang members and my wife and kids. Remember that the police are at least 10 minutes away. How much can 8 people do in 10 minutes? Molatov through the bedroom window?
In 1991, Virginia had a May issue CCW system. I carried anyway, as it was only a misdemeanor at the time to carry concealed without a permit, and open carry (while legal) ensured you would be hassled by the cops, and the crime was totally out of control. Remember that this was the during the period of the crack wars of the 80s, and the Rodney King riots. Gang violence was horrid, and I remember several shootouts between rival gangs at the mall down the street. It isn't like I was in a good neighborhood, at 23 years old and in the military. Not a bad neighborhood, but on the border. I live in a better area, and I am much better armed and equipped now.
1 I have posted this before, on TFL, and on the old packing.org site.
2 I waited outside for them, because I felt that by staying outside of the house, I was not going to let them decide the battle by barricading myself inside with my wife and kids. I thought that by engaging them outside, I was choosing the time, place, and method of contact.
3 To JohnKSa: Actually, looking back on it, I still believe deadly force was required, and I hesitated. They SHOT AT US. I guess you are saying that deadly force was not needed because no one was hurt, but I disagree. The only thing preventing anyone from getting hurt was poor marksmanship on the gang's part. It could have easily gone the other way.
As a result of this incident, my new policy means that if I see a weapon in a situation like this again, I am shooting. Period. Think about this: I had anywhere from 5 to 8 goblins in front of me, weapons evident. At least one of them was willing to take a shot. From a tactical standpoint, had they decided to pursue the fight, it would have been possibly an 8 on 3 fight (with one of the three drinking).
Had I waited inside the home, it would have been ugly. In my home, I would not have even had the 2 neighbors to help, and I would have been the only thing between 8 gang members and my wife and kids. Remember that the police are at least 10 minutes away. How much can 8 people do in 10 minutes? Molatov through the bedroom window?
In 1991, Virginia had a May issue CCW system. I carried anyway, as it was only a misdemeanor at the time to carry concealed without a permit, and open carry (while legal) ensured you would be hassled by the cops, and the crime was totally out of control. Remember that this was the during the period of the crack wars of the 80s, and the Rodney King riots. Gang violence was horrid, and I remember several shootouts between rival gangs at the mall down the street. It isn't like I was in a good neighborhood, at 23 years old and in the military. Not a bad neighborhood, but on the border. I live in a better area, and I am much better armed and equipped now.
Sav .250
Member
A tough lesson learned .......the hard way.
What a mess.
This thread only hardens my feelings about gangs and the low life scum in them.
Where i live there are a lot of Hispanic gang members,most of whom are not even legal residents of this country,and they cause a lot of problems.
They dont give a damn about the law and are not worried one bit as they know how to game the system and have been doing so most of their lifes.
Get cross ways with them and the things you went through and worse is coming your way.
I hate gangs!!
This thread only hardens my feelings about gangs and the low life scum in them.
Where i live there are a lot of Hispanic gang members,most of whom are not even legal residents of this country,and they cause a lot of problems.
They dont give a damn about the law and are not worried one bit as they know how to game the system and have been doing so most of their lifes.
Get cross ways with them and the things you went through and worse is coming your way.
I hate gangs!!
WNC Seabee
Member
This.
The way I read the OP's post makes me think he's a hot head looking for a fight. He does not come across as a man defending his family.
How about calling the cops, putting the wife and kids in the car and staying at the in-laws or getting a hotel that night? Then deal with things after the blood stopped boiling. NO...that wouldn't be "manly", MUCH better to lay an ambush (immediately losing the legal AND moral high ground) and wind up dead on the street where you can REALLY show your wife and kids how tough you are.
I'm sure they'd lie comfortably in bed the rest of their lives not worried about paying the mortgage and your funeral bills simply knowing that dad/husband died a "real man".
I can't believe the positive remarks you're getting on this forum. THought this was the 'High Road".
divemedic
Member
That is me. Hothead. Read the post. We called the cops. Multiple times. I was a 22 year old E4 in the military at the time. No family in the area. No money for hotels. Heck, I was raising a wife and two kids on less than $1200 a month.
Name calling. That is High Road.
Shoot, if all we need to do is run and let the criminals have our homes, run us out of our neighborhoods, I realize now that I have been going about this all wrong. I see the light now. I am selling all of my guns and buying some flowers and a hippie drum set. Thank you so much for your insightful commentary.
Name calling. That is High Road.
Shoot, if all we need to do is run and let the criminals have our homes, run us out of our neighborhoods, I realize now that I have been going about this all wrong. I see the light now. I am selling all of my guns and buying some flowers and a hippie drum set. Thank you so much for your insightful commentary.
bababooey32
Member
Have to agree with WNC Seabee. Once you left your home to set an ambush, you lost me. I understand the tactical argument, but this isn't a combat zone. Your first responsibility is your safety and that of your family. If you believed they would be coming back to harm you, there was ample opportunity to retreat with your family. There is no question that would have been the safest for everyone involved. Let the cops to stakeouts!
Sorry. I know it was aa tough situation, but honestly I think you mishandled it from the ambush forward.
Sorry. I know it was aa tough situation, but honestly I think you mishandled it from the ambush forward.
bababooey32
Member
That is disingenuous at best. As a military man, you should know that tactical retreat is not the same as surrender. Are you saying that 8 morals-challenged gangbangers vs. 2 dads was tactically better than 8 vs 0?
No money to save your family's lives?
You seemed to have enough money for a bunch of guns and movies and beer, but not to take your family someplace safe? Sorry bud, that fails basic common sense. I'm afraid you need to get beyond tactical = guns and start thinking more broadly about how best to protect your family. Armed engagement should be a last resort.divemedic
Member
Whatever. I did what I did, and I managed to live through the ordeal. Don't like it? Tough. You want to cut and run? Go ahead. I still stand behind what I did, with the only possible exception being that I will be more aggressive next time.
What is the difference between meeting them in my living room and meeting them in my yard? Is one any more or less an ambush than the other?
How long should I stay in that hotel you recommend? They stalked us for WEEKS until we moved. Do you think that going to a movie is the equivalent of staying in a hotel for weeks? and I don't drink beer. The neighbors did.
Reading comprehension.
I owned a pump shotgun that I paid for, a rifle given to me by my dad, and two pistols that I bought used. Not like I was rich or anything. If you choose to run, fine. That is your choice. Run. This was mine. Mine worked.
What is the difference between meeting them in my living room and meeting them in my yard? Is one any more or less an ambush than the other?
How long should I stay in that hotel you recommend? They stalked us for WEEKS until we moved. Do you think that going to a movie is the equivalent of staying in a hotel for weeks? and I don't drink beer. The neighbors did.
Reading comprehension.
I owned a pump shotgun that I paid for, a rifle given to me by my dad, and two pistols that I bought used. Not like I was rich or anything. If you choose to run, fine. That is your choice. Run. This was mine. Mine worked.
bababooey32
Member
Not much for constructive criticism, are you? I'm guessing you did a lot of pushups in the Navy. If you didn't want to read critical comments, you should have kept your story to yourself.
In any case, you contradict your own points with your actions. You ended up moving from that house (by the way I read it) because of the ongoing threat to you and your family.
While inconvenient, expensive, and frustrating it was definitely the right thing to do for the ongoing safety of your family, right? So why the outraged response to the suggestion that you take that strategy and apply it sooner in a confrontation? All we are saying is that, looking back it appears that you could have avoided ANY armed confrontation with the gang by retreating. In no case is offensive gunplay a sound tactic for "self-defense".
In any case, you contradict your own points with your actions. You ended up moving from that house (by the way I read it) because of the ongoing threat to you and your family.
While inconvenient, expensive, and frustrating it was definitely the right thing to do for the ongoing safety of your family, right? So why the outraged response to the suggestion that you take that strategy and apply it sooner in a confrontation? All we are saying is that, looking back it appears that you could have avoided ANY armed confrontation with the gang by retreating. In no case is offensive gunplay a sound tactic for "self-defense".
Cosmoline
Member
Unless he had a legal duty to retreat, there was no obligation for him to do so. Though there are sound tactical reasons to seek concealment, it also keeps you from being able to see what's happening in their car.
You cannot commit murder in hindsight. Nor could he read minds at the time of the incident. The test for self defense does not go back in time and try to figure out if the criminal with the firearm who's just threatened to kill you really actually planned on shooting you.
You cannot commit murder in hindsight. Nor could he read minds at the time of the incident. The test for self defense does not go back in time and try to figure out if the criminal with the firearm who's just threatened to kill you really actually planned on shooting you.
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Vonderek
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The other lesson of the story. When you are a victim of crime do not expect law enforcement and the justice system to automatically leap into action on your behalf. Be prepared for those who you thought were there to protect you to berate and harangue you...and to pass the buck. You may need to beg and cajole to get any action. Expect to get screwed in court because one lawyer is more clever than another or because one motion was filed with an incorrect number or somesuch clerical error. Or maybe the judge in your case is absent one day and you get a substitute judge who has different ideas.
Like our over-hyped American Healthcare system, our vaunted "American Justice System" is far from perfect. True, it's better than other places that will let you rot with no charges filed or take no action unless you bribe the right people, but at the very least you will be dragged through a multi-year process, sacrificing work and mental health, and may or may not emerge at the other end with some of your life savings intact.
Like our over-hyped American Healthcare system, our vaunted "American Justice System" is far from perfect. True, it's better than other places that will let you rot with no charges filed or take no action unless you bribe the right people, but at the very least you will be dragged through a multi-year process, sacrificing work and mental health, and may or may not emerge at the other end with some of your life savings intact.
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