Air Force Academy cadet creates bulletproof substance

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Double Naught Spy said:
You will probably consider the crustless sandwich a process patent because the sandwich does something different, but it is the sandwich that is patented.
https://www.google.com/patents/US6004596

And it can be patented for much the same reason as the cadet's ballistic non-newtonian fluid. It does things a little differently.
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Sorry, no.

The crustless sandwich was deemed "not patentable".

Read under the legal events:

Sep 25, 2007 - Reexamination decision cancelled all claims
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Just because there is a patent number does not mean the patent is still 'in force'.

As to the non-newtonian fluid: You can patent the chemical compound itself, that is a new invention, or you can patent a new process to make an existing chemical compound, but you cannot patent the concept of a non-newtonian fluid.
 
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There have been plenty of patents issued for incredibly stupid applications. Again, Amazon's patent for taking a photo against a white background. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/how-amazon-got-a-patent-on-white-background-photography/

Or this one for running a headphone wire though a hole in a pocket. https://www.google.com/patents/US7519192

Just because something was patented doesn't mean it has any real merit. It just means that the patent office couldn't find legal grounds to refuse it.

It's a moot point anyways. Until it stands up to rifle rounds it's useless, and even if the company they're working with comes up with something it doesn't change the fact that the cadet in question didn't invent, create, or develop anything in any way, shape, or form, by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Dunno if the new mixture works better than previous attempts using similar methods.

Making lighter armor is a big deal, if you can really do it. Even doing it with a standard ceramic/glass/kevlar sandwich would be a big deal if you lower the areal density by 20% with the same level of protection (projectile and backface deformation).

If the new non-newtonian fluid works better than stuff tried earlier, it would be a big deal.
 
Berger.Fan222 said:
Dunno if the new mixture works better than previous attempts using similar methods.

Making lighter armor is a big deal, if you can really do it. Even doing it with a standard ceramic/glass/kevlar sandwich would be a big deal if you lower the areal density by 20% with the same level of protection (projectile and backface deformation).

If the new non-newtonian fluid works better than stuff tried earlier, it would be a big deal.
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The bar is already set pretty high. I can't remember what it's called, but there's a company that makes level IV plates that are half the weight of the ones issued now, and they actually have pretty decent positive buoyancy.

One thing I've never seen anyone do with liquid armor is demonstrate that it can take multiple hits. Every demonstration I've ever seen is a single hit and done.
 
grampajack said:
The bar is already set pretty high. I can't remember what it's called, but there's a company that makes level IV plates that are half the weight of the ones issued now, and they actually have pretty decent positive buoyancy.
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Maybe, but I'd love to see the link on that and look into it and see their actual test results and whether the claims are backed up with real testing or if it is just marketing hype. Stopping an AP M2 30-06 round at over 2800 fps is not easy and half the weight of current issue.

Then there is also the matter of cost. Cutting the weight in half at the same performance really only represents a niche market for wealthy executives and other small groups if the cost is 2-4 time the currently fielded technology. Engineering advances that increase the costs by over 20% for mass market or stuff with hundreds of thousands of units fielded are not really engineering advances until someone figures out how to do it cost competitively.
 
lysanderxiii said:
Positive buoyancy just means the average density is less than that of water. It does not mean it is light weight.

A 100,000 ton aircraft carrier has positive bouyancy
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I'm well aware of that. Like I said, it's roughly half the weight of standard plates, AND it has the added benefit of being buoyant.
 
grampajack said:
I'm well aware of that. Like I said, it's roughly half the weight of standard plates, AND it has the added benefit of being buoyant.
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At 11 pounds for just a pair of level IV plates, their still not "light".

They are also about twice as thick and not at all flexible.

One of the biggest advantages of "liquid armor" would be that it would be flexible until impact. SAPI plates are great at stopping stuff, but they are restrictive in that they are solid plates, even Kevlar ain't all that flexible.
 
The inclusion of shear thickening fluids in ballistics vests was an old and well discussed topic when I was still in engineering school almost a decade ago. This is not a topic I would expect a Eureka, A+X= magic! type discovery on. Maybe there was a fluid developed recently that solves all the issues (dispersion, etc.) that all the well funded defense contractor R&D groups missed, that she found, but...... The simpler and more likely answer to me (being an engineer that has worked extensively with the DOD) would be that this is a puff piece. Maybe I'm wrong....

Either way, it sounds like she is getting another degree out of the deal, good for her as far as I'm concerned.
 
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I don't understand all the negativity either. Of course the idea has been tried before, obviously without great success. Perhaps they are on to a solution?

Most of the big (revolutionary) breakthroughs don't come from inventing new tech, they come from using existing tech in a new way (having modified it to suit).
 
lysanderxiii said:
At 11 pounds for just a pair of level IV plates, their still not "light".

They are also about twice as thick and not at all flexible.

One of the biggest advantages of "liquid armor" would be that it would be flexible until impact. SAPI plates are great at stopping stuff, but they are restrictive in that they are solid plates, even Kevlar ain't all that flexible.
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When we're talking rifle calibers, especially the larger ones like 7.62, stiffness is a must. If they were to develop liquid armor capable of stopping rifle rounds they would have to back it with something anyways, or it would be like taking a fastball to chest. You also couldn't let it flex too much or it would displace the material inside, thinning it out wherever it was folded.

You do have a point about it being thick, though. Then again, there's no guarantee that liquid armor will be any thinner once made capable of stopping rifle rounds.
 
grampajack said:
When we're talking rifle calibers, especially the larger ones like 7.62, stiffness is a must. If they were to develop liquid armor capable of stopping rifle rounds they would have to back it with something anyways, or it would be like taking a fastball to chest. You also couldn't let it flex too much or it would displace the material inside, thinning it out wherever it was folded.

You do have a point about it being thick, though. Then again, there's no guarantee that liquid armor will be any thinner once made capable of stopping rifle rounds.
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You're missing the point of non-newtonian fluids, they can become stiff under impact, but normally are flexible.
 
lysanderxiii said:
You're missing the point of non-newtonian fluids, they can become stiff under impact, but normally are flexible.
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The increased surface tension only applies to the immediate area where force is applied. You can see from any liquid armor test, this one included, that they don't act like plates by any stretch of the imagination. I see no big advantage over kevlar in terms of blunt force protection.
 
grampajack said:
The increased surface tension only applies to the immediate area where force is applied. You can see from any liquid armor test, this one included, that they don't act like plates by any stretch of the imagination. I see no big advantage over kevlar in terms of blunt force protection.
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The shear stress is distributed over a much larger area when a bullet strikes a material than for low speed impacts. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the stiffening in response to the shear stress could also occur over a much larger area. The metric most commonly used to quantify blunt force protection is back face deformation - the distance the back of the armor is pushed into a specific tissue simulant when the armor stops a specific bullet in testing. Whether a liquid based armor could outperform kevlar (and similar aramid fabrics) in this area is a question that should be determined experimentally. Ruling out the possibility a priori would be foolish.
 
Didn't the sci-fi series "Dune" have some sort of body armor that could be penetrated if the weapon approached slowly (like a knife) but not when it approached quickly (like a bullet)?

In any case, interesting technology.
 
lysanderxiii said:
At 11 pounds for just a pair of level IV plates, their still not "light".

They are also about twice as thick and not at all flexible.

One of the biggest advantages of "liquid armor" would be that it would be flexible until impact. SAPI plates are great at stopping stuff, but they are restrictive in that they are solid plates, even Kevlar ain't all that flexible.
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True, the flexibility would be great, but as noted above, that is a benefit, but then you have to overcome ALL the detractions. It doesn't breath. How well will it work in 120 degree heat or 10 degree cold? So you have a liquid armor, how do you keep the liquid inside during normal use, after being hit? That would imply having it be self sealing, adding addition weight and bulk. How do you keep it properly distributed in the carrier?

There are some amazing materials out there and if they could be militarized successfully, we would have lighter armor already. The problem is that all this cool stuff doesn't meet the standard of being better than what we have. We are over 10 years into non-Newtonian body armor and nobody seems to be fielding it anywhere, not even as prototypes.
 
It took nearly 100 years to go from the most basic understanding of electricity to the electric light bulb. And, another 30 before it fully supplanted gas lighting and steam powered factories.

Most earth shaking technologies are incremental in their development . . .

Honestly, some of you guys sound like the early 19th century generals when they heard of some obscure Scottish parson's latest invention in 1807. It would be another 15 years before the idea was militarily practical, and 30 years before it was generally implemented. However, the culmination of the advance brought about by percussion ignition of firearms did not occur until nearly 50 years after Forsyth's basic idea was hatched, the drawn brass centerfire cartridge case.
 
lysanderxiii said:
Honestly, some of you guys sound like the early 19th century generals when they heard of some obscure Scottish parson's latest invention in 1807. It would be another 15 years before the idea was militarily practical, and 30 years before it was generally implemented. However, the culmination of the advance brought about by percussion ignition of firearms did not occur until nearly 50 years after Forsyth's basic idea was hatched, the drawn brass centerfire cartridge case.
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Actually...that's not a fair assessment of the current situation at all. Some of us DO know much of the science and history of armor development and understand the limitations and difficulties of implementing the 'liquid armor' idea into a workable state. So far...millions of dollars and tens of thousands of hours of investment by the very best in the industry have failed to come up with usable armor, but let a student (with aid from her instructor) perform a basic science-fair quality experiment and some people think that they've stumbled upon something that is going to revolutionize the industry. Hardly.

Perhaps we could have a wager? My money is on the fact that you'll never see anything come from this Cadet and her 'discovery'. What she 'discovered' is already well known, and reminds me of the YouTube people arguing that rockets can't work in outer space.....and want someone to build an experiment to prove it. 'Hey everyone...look at this thing I just invented!!! I'm going to call it 'The Wheel!!':)
 
lysanderxiii said:
It took nearly 100 years to go from the most basic understanding of electricity to the electric light bulb. And, another 30 before it fully supplanted gas lighting and steam powered factories.

Most earth shaking technologies are incremental in their development . . .

Honestly, some of you guys sound like the early 19th century generals when they heard of some obscure Scottish parson's latest invention in 1807. It would be another 15 years before the idea was militarily practical, and 30 years before it was generally implemented. However, the culmination of the advance brought about by percussion ignition of firearms did not occur until nearly 50 years after Forsyth's basic idea was hatched, the drawn brass centerfire cartridge case.
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You're forgetting to take into account that for every successful idea there are thousands of unsuccessful ones, most of which were met with disdain in their own day, and some that were touted as revolutionary before being found entirely useless. But that's neither here nor there.

The problem people have with this news story isn't the validity of liquid armor, it's the fact that she didn't do anything and yet is receiving credit for the ideas of people who invented the first liquid armor prototypes before she was out of grade school.
 
RecoilRob said:
Actually...that's not a fair assessment of the current situation at all. Some of us DO know much of the science and history of armor development and understand the limitations and difficulties of implementing the 'liquid armor' idea into a workable state. So far...millions of dollars and tens of thousands of hours of investment by the very best in the industry have failed to come up with usable armor, but let a student (with aid from her instructor) perform a basic science-fair quality experiment and some people think that they've stumbled upon something that is going to revolutionize the industry. Hardly.

Perhaps we could have a wager? My money is on the fact that you'll never see anything come from this Cadet and her 'discovery'. What she 'discovered' is already well known, and reminds me of the YouTube people arguing that rockets can't work in outer space.....and want someone to build an experiment to prove it. 'Hey everyone...look at this thing I just invented!!! I'm going to call it 'The Wheel!!':)
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Even negative data points are still data . . .
 
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