Air Rifles

[JohnKSa]

I understand the lure of the high quality airgun (Beeman R1 owner, here). The problem is that most weigh a ton and have the nastiest, most tumor-laden buttstocks known to gun-dom.

Really, 8-9+ lbs for an airgun is ridiculous. I think that, perhaps, a large number of airgun enthusiasts suffer from firearm envy & want an airgun that weighs and feels like a big-bore rifle.

The reason that powerful airguns tend to be large is that the airgun must contain all the equipment to generate the power that launches the projectile while the power to launch a firearm projectile is provided by the ammunition.

You can go lighter and get good power if you go with a precharged pneumatic (PCP) but you still have to have a tank to contain the pressurized air.

For indoor practice, the R7 is a good choice, and at 6 lbs it's not too heavy.

 

[TX_Shooter]

Well I guess it really depends on what you use it for to pay that big $$$ for one.

To me, my old 760 which was manufacture date of may of 1989 finally came to an end today. As I was pumping it, you can hear it hissssss. So it was not holding air. My 760, which made many memories when I was 12 years old killed plenty of rodents, birds and I promise this 'a racoon'. A buddy @ the time had a over priced 120.00 Benjamin Sheridan (single shot, pump and pellet) never beat me out on kills over my 760. I guess to each of there own. As for center rifles, I can say you pay for what you get. For my purpose at the time, my air rifle made me into a great marksman that I am today. So to me, that is what counts.

To me, yes you need a good gun, good accurate one, but even the best one can be beat with just a good gun.

 

[YodaVader]

Well I guess it really depends on what you use it for to pay that big $$$ for one.

That is very correct. My R7 at the time was $239. It is a target shooting air rifle for me and it that use it performs very well considering my marginal level of rifle shooting skill. The R7 allows me to shoot to a much higher degree of precision than I can compared to my Crosman.

These are a few 10 shot targets and a 20 shot I have shot at the 50ft range with the R7 from a standing position. If I could find a $50 or $60 air rifle that would allow me to shoot similar targets I would buy it.

A good air rifle shooter could do much better - certainly I am not shooting anywhere near the potential of the R7. From a rest at the same distance it is not too difficult to get 5 shots into a single hole.

 

[knzn]

" TX_Shooter
To me, my old 760 which was manufacture date of may of 1989 finally came to an end today. As I was pumping it, you can hear it hissssss. "

Rebuild or have it rebuilt. A hisssss may just mean new seals are in order.

 

[koja48]

Why own a quality air gun?

I own several, not real high-end, but accurate as all get out. 2 Beemans (R-7 & HW97 and a Baikal "Izzy" pneumatic pistol). Great for pest control, superb triggers, I can shoot every day on my own range (practice makes perfect), quality ammo is cheap, etc. The rifles are scoped & I'll NEVER part with the R-7. Although one holds a spring-piston air gun more loosely than a center fire, breathing, sight aquisition, & trigger mechanics are the same . . . great way to keep my long-range varmint-shooting habits well-groomed. Check out www.straightshooters.com . . . there's a wealth of information to be had there.

 

[TX_Shooter]

Rebuild or have it rebuilt. A hisssss may just mean new seals are in order.

KNZN,

I called couple of service places and they want to charge about 40-60 to repair the seal and I even got the new seal kit from Crossman. That is sad, b/c a new pumpmaster can be had at my local wal-mart for 35.00 :banghead:

 

[Sungun09]

airgun

mine was $1,000 w/o scope.

They are quiet and can be fired in your attic, but watch out for windows, ahem....

On another note, mine puts out almost 30FP in energy. If I need to hunt squirrels or birds in my neighborhood I can.

They are also not registered in my state....

 

[JohnKSa]

I called couple of service places and they want to charge about 40-60 to repair the seal and I even got the new seal kit from Crossman.

Crosman may fix it for free if you sent it to them. I'd call them.

 

[TX_Shooter]

Crosman may fix it for free if you sent it to them. I'd call them.

Crossman was the ones that gave me the phone number to call the service guys to get my crossman repaired. lol

 

[iamkris]

Some of you guys seem to have an odd association of what constitutes value in a gun.

Since when did caliber = price? If a gun is highly accurate and is of impeccable build quality, that constitutes a high $ arm. Its caliber and mode of propulsion are irrelevant.

 

[roo_ster]

iamkris:

Utility usually comes into the equation, somewhere. The utility provided by a high-dollar air rifle is orders of magnitude less than a centerfire (or even a rimfire) rifle of similar cost.

Also, even the most accurate of air rifles are not particularly accurate at moderate centerfire ranges (100yds or so). At 10m, the best air rifles are world-beaters. At 100m, they are purt near worthless (loss of accuracy, trajectory like a rainbow, what little power they had has disipated to nothing).

FWIW, I appreciate air rifles' virtues, but I don't kid myself about their utility or the "bang for buck" they provide relative to firearms.

Also, because I point out air rifles' limitations and such, does not mean I think a person foolish for buying a high dollar example of the type.

 

[NORTEXED]

I bought my 12 Y.O. a Daisy / Winchester PS 1000 for Christmas from Wally world for 99.95 w/ scope. It looked like an O.K. gun in the store, and after shooting it a lot at home, I am impressed. It's advertised as 1000 FPS, and if I had to guess, I'd say they were right. I know it sure doesn't drop much out to 50-60 yds, and at 75', will shoot through 3/4" plywood and keep going. The 3X9 scope is not bad at all either, and the gun shoots consistently minute of sparrow from the back deck to the electric pole behind the fence (110-115'), and the .177 shoot through on most birds. The big black Grackels we have problems with here,flop 1 or 2 times, but never walk or fly away.

 

[iamkris]

Utility usually comes into the equation, somewhere. The utility provided by a high-dollar air rifle is orders of magnitude less than a centerfire (or even a rimfire) rifle of similar cost.

Also, even the most accurate of air rifles are not particularly accurate at moderate centerfire ranges (100yds or so).

If you mean utility like

• Being able to shoot almost anywhere, anytime, even in the comfort of your basement
• Being able to perfect basic marksmanship skills and drastically improve your shooting at any range
• Being able to shoot at a much lower cost and damage (e.g., noise and recoil) than a centerfire

Yup...I agree with you. Its about trigger time, not power, trajectory, etc.

Again, the fact that it isn't a 100M (or a 500M gun) is irrelevant. The 50 BMG crowd could say similar things that you did about the .308 crowd.

Anyone who doesn't think that shooting at short ranges improves long distance precision should take an Appleseed course...where a significant amount of time shooting major caliber rifles is done at...wait for it...25M.

** I am not an airgun geek...don't even own one myself. I just see lots of advantages to them that are unconnected to bullet weight and velocity.

 

[JohnKSa]

The utility provided by a high-dollar air rifle is orders of magnitude less than a centerfire (or even a rimfire) rifle of similar cost.

I find that I shoot my airguns a good deal more than I do any of my firearms...somewhere along the line it hit me that I should be spending all that time with a really good quality piece of equipment rather than something I bought cheap at a department store.

They have a DIFFERENT utility than many firearms, but if utility is measured in pests eliminated, rounds downrange, trigger time, or entertainment value, I'd say that my airguns are way out in front.

 

[roo_ster]

Utility

iamkris & JohnKSa:

You both do a good job listing air rifles' virtues. I agree with all those points.

I don't agree withthe following:

Its caliber and mode of propulsion are irrelevant.

Rimfires
Thing is, the virtues listed can all be had in a quaity rimfire rifle like the CZ513 for 1/4 the price or something like CZ453 Varmint for 1/2 the price of the hypothetical $1000 air rifle. And they are roughly half the weight of a bbl/under/side-lever cocking air rifle (of the ~1000fps with .177" pellet class). So kids, and smaller-statured adults don't need a gun-bearer to tote it for them and hold the fore end up.

If you wanna spend ~$1000 on a rimfire, Anschütz can float your boat with sporters and dedicated target rifles in that neighborhood. Here is a catalog of Anshuzt sporter rifles. The weightiest target/sporter weighs less than the ~1000fps air rifles.

With most non-semi rimfire rifles, one can shoot everything from CCI CB shorts/longs (which are quieter than my own Beeman R1) to match .22LR, to high velocity .22LR. The below points are covered:

# Being able to shoot almost anywhere, anytime, even in the comfort of your basement
# Being able to perfect basic marksmanship skills and drastically improve your shooting at any range
# Being able to shoot at a much lower cost and damage (e.g., noise and recoil) than a centerfire

They can do all that while not being marginal for the taking of small game up to jack rabbit/rock chuck/coyote size. At greater range than an air rifle could ever dream of.

The only thing they can not do is not be a firearm, as an air rifle is not a firearm. This is significant in some locales & circumstances. In those locales & circumstances, the air rifle has the edge in utility as the rimfire can't play.

Centerfires
Air rifles & centerfire rifles are two entirely different leagues. I don't see them being shot in too many basements and the cost/shot advantage is entirely with the air rifle.

OTOH, a centerfire one spends $1000 on an be used for shooting at longer ranges than any air rifle can. It can also harvest game most any air rifle can not (with the exception of the big bore air rifles, which have serious range limitations and lack .177 & .22 air rifle virtues, anyway).

But, if one is not limited to basement ranges and one can afford some ammo, the utility of the centerfire rifle is all over that of an air rifle. This is especially true when comparing high-dollar equivalent air vs centerfire rifles.

 

[JohnKSa]

Even though rimfires can be safely fired indoors, the danger of lead contamination from the lead compounds in the primer as well as vaporized bullet material make shooting in a dwelling inadvisable. It's not just a matter of being able to catch the bullet safely and keeping the sound to a manageable level, a firearm is going to contaminate an indoor shooting range with lead while a properly designed airgun indoor range will not cause any contamination at all.

But, if one is not limited to basement ranges and one can afford some ammo, the utility of the centerfire rifle is all over that of an air rifle.

Ok, if shooting long range and hunting big game are your only priorities, and if you don't value any shooting practice that doesn't involve the use of your centerfire long range/hunting rifle then this is right.

But if high-volume daily shooting practice is a high priority, there's almost nothing that matches the utility of an airgun. You could even argue that the utility of an airgun increases the utility of your firearms by providing an inexpensive and convenient way for you to improve your shooting skills.

BTW, I own some VERY nice air rifles. None of them cost $1,000. One of the nicest ones I own cost me around $500--and that's the cost after a good bit of customization including some professional work. Stock, it cost me about $250--about what a nice rimfire would run.

 

[iamkris]

the utility of the centerfire rifle is all over that of an air rifle

Again, I think you are confusing POWER with UTILITY

To me, shooting is a sport and I want to be as good at it as I can. Air rifles allow you to do that more often, in more places at less cost and without the distraction of recoil and blast.

Centerfires are much more useful at whacking stuff at long distance. But for getting better at shooting I think (as my time spent as an instructor has proven) that they can actually be a DETRIMENT not a help.

I really think we're starting to talk past each other...sometimes in a debate that happens.

 

[JohnKSa]

I really think we're starting to talk past each other...sometimes in a debate that happens.

Maybe, I think it's more that we've got some fundamental differences in how we view shooting.

It's interesting to see how other people think. Besides, this kind of discussion helps me crystallize things that I may not have carefully thought out before. I see shooting as primarily a hobby--I don't deny nor do I eschew the practical benefits, but they're not the main reason I own and shoot guns. So utility, in my case not only encompasses the purely practical uses of guns (air or fire) but also the entertainment value. That's where I was going with my comment about rounds downrange, trigger time, etc.

I can't tell if jfruser is really saying that the practical aspects of shooting are the only thing he's in it for, or if he sees this as an exercise in defining the utility of a "projectile dispenser". I think it's an interesting interchange regardless.

 

[dixierifleman]

i dont get it either. id rather have a real rifle.

 

[roo_ster]

Utility

utility

u·til·i·ty /yuˈtɪlɪti/ [yoo-til-i-tee] noun, plural -ties, adjective
–noun
1. the state or quality of being useful; usefulness: This chemical has no utility as an agricultural fertilizer.
2. something useful; a useful thing.
3. a public service, as a telephone or electric-light system, a streetcar or railroad line, or the like. Compare public utility (def. 1).
4. Often, utilities. a useful or advantageous factor or feature: the relative utilities of a religious or a secular education.
5. Economics. the capacity of a commodity or a service to satisfy some human want.
6. the principle and end of utilitarian ethics; well-being or happiness; that which is conducive to the happiness and well-being of the greatest number.
7. Computers. utility program.
8. utilities, stocks or bonds of public utilities.
9. a grade of beef immediately below commercial.
–adjective
10. (of domestic animals) raised or kept as a potentially profitable product rather than for show or as pets: utility breeds; utility livestock.
11. having or made for a number of useful or practical purposes rather than a single, specialized one: a utility knife.
12. designed chiefly for use or service rather than beauty, high quality, or the like: a utility vehicle; utility furniture.

I am using the term "utility" as defined in 1, 2, 11, 12. If forced to pick just one, I would say #11 is closest: having or made for a number of useful or practical purposes rather than a single, specialized one: a utility knife.

I see an air rifle as the opposite of utilitarian. It is specialized.

If I were to make an analogy using knives:
Centerfire Rifle~Pocket folding knife~Utilitarian
Air Rifle~Oyster knife~Specialized

What are all the possible things one can do with a rifle?

1. Hunt small game
2. Hunt larger game
3. Target shoot
4. Train oneself to shoot better
5. Defend oneself vs two & four legged predators
6. Use as an implement of war
7. Participate in competition
8. Whack someone over the head with its buttstock
9. Display it for others' admiration
10. Go plinking
11. Entertainment
12. Etc...(Add your own functions/activities)

An serious (dollar & quality) air rifle is good for some of 1, 4, 10, & 11 and can be said to cover 3 & 7 pretty well. The other stuff it can't even touch. And the weight of a serious air rifle is relatively greater. I think 1/3 greater is a conservative estimate.

That said, the air rifle has virtues particular to it that in some, particular circumstances, the air rifle is the ideal tool for the task at hand. (I bet an professional oyster shucker would rather have the specialized tool for his work...and would be SOL if he needed to skin some game.)

Also, one can gain much utility and save much money and weight by moving from an air to a rimfire rifle of equivalent quality/accuracy/etc.

I tried to demonstrate this with my previous post, but was less successful than I wish I was.

 

[JohnKSa]

I think that's a fair assessment...

The only thing I would point out is that as you go farther down in a definition, the meanings are the ones less frequently used and more likely to be unusual shades of meaning rather than the most common meaning. That's pertinent since your argument depends heavily on 11 & 12 which are the least common uses of the word "utility".

Even so, using your assessment, if you enjoy shooting and good quality equipment, can't often make it to a range but want to shoot often, an airgun would be about all the utility you could handle.

Sure, it has different, perhaps fewer uses (or more accurately, a narrower range of uses) than more general purpose firearms but if the areas where it excels are the uses that you want, and you don't want to mess around with "department store specials", then it makes sense to spend what it takes to get quality.

I guess what I'm saying is that defining a "reasonable" price by the overall general utility (across the board/over the entire general public/considering every single possible use and weighting them all equally) doesn't work in the real world. In fact, it's often the case that the more specialized something is, the more expensive it is.

What it comes down to for me is that airguns have uses that are valuable to me. I shoot them more than I shoot my firearms due to the extreme convenience factor and very low ammunition cost. I enjoy using quality equipment so I buy quality equipment. The combination of those things means that quality airguns are very useful to me and more than justify the money I have spent on them.

 

[YodaVader]

i dont get it either. id rather have a real rifle.

I have owned/own "real" rifles in calibers like 22lr , .223 , .308 and .444. During the Winter months when I shoot indoors quite a bit the air rilfe is a far better choice than any of the above. Although the 22lr is not bad either for that purpose. The air rifle still produces far less noise and give up nothing in accuracy to the 22lr at that range. In the Spring after my first Winter of indoor air rifle shooting I found I was a much better shooter when I started shooting outdoors again with the "real" guns.

I sure as hec would not want to shoot a .223 or .308 at an indoor 50 ft range! And my indoor range is a handgun only range with the excepetion of rifles in 22 lr.

So in my particular use there is absolutely no advantage at all in using a "real" rifle. And don't get me started on air pistol shooting! With my Beeman P3 I got a few laughs when I showed up one night. The guys shooting the Walther and High Standard target pistols were not laughing when the "lowly" P3 shot a better target than their high dollar pistols!

 

[mainmech48]

There are several factors involved when you're comparing the relative cost, weight, power, etc. of air arms.

Operating principle is one. Spring-air arms tend to get heavier and cost more as their velocity, delivered projectile energy, and the precision of manufacturing necessary to keep delivering them over a 'reasonable' service life increase. The stresses involved are unique and can be amazingly concentrated and severe. Successful solutions to cope with them tend to get heavy and costly. Match weapons require extremely precise manufacturing tolerances and engineering specs to deliver the accuracy and uniformity of preformance to be competitive.

Pre-charged systems offer several advantages as far as relative power, repeating capability, and size go, but not without a large price. The working principle requires that very high pressures be contained and precisely controlled. The sophistication of the engineering and the precision of manufacturing necessary to do this is expensive.

I guess it all depends on where you decide the best compromises lie, and what you're willing to trade for what. Value is always a relative term, and only the individual can decide what a particular feature or performance spec is worth to him.

I get about as much fun out of my 'cheapie' air guns like the two Chinese "Compasseco" gun show specials I paid about $35/ea. for and the Baikal IZH-61 repeater I gave $85 for as I do from my $400+ scoped RWS M48. The things I ask of them are what's different, and that's what the extra money went for, in my case.

 

[TX_Shooter]

I did it

I mean I upGRADED. I got a B30 .22 cal. This SOB is powerfull.
Shot a squirrel that was eating at our garden. Head-shot. No-more head.

 

[pacodelahoya]

If I was allowed to shoot my Mosin or my Biathalon out in my backyard, I would.

I'm not, therefore, I shoot the Gamo hunter.

It's as simple as that.

Some of you guys really really sound like gun snobs.