AK Advice

[briang2ad]

I am in the hunt for an AK...

At the last show I saw the usual WASRs for about $330-360 with all the trimmings. I also saw a guy with a couple of SARs for $400. Which to get?

Here are some specifics:

- I read elsewhere on this site that one guy had a WASR that shot as accurately as his Paratrooper SKS (Norinco). My Para shoots VERY well is this really the case with WASRs? I heard they were not that accuate.

- Is the finish really parkerization? If so, I assume that I could spray and bake on Gun Kote? OR - does cold blue over the parkerization darken it up nice enough? pics anyone?

- What about mag fit? Are WASRs that much looser because of no dimples? (My Hungarian SA 85 has mag wobble too...)

- Anyone own BOTH a WASR and SAR and have a comparison? I do like the dimple, but if the fit, finish, function, and accuracy are equal, why not pay less and get the goodies?

Or is it REALLY worth the extra $200 and blow it on a Vektor Arms AK?

ALSO - I have heard speculation that USA made recievers aren't proven - anything to this?

 

[clange]

If you want a threaded barrel and bayo lug you should probably get the WASR. You can add them to a SAR, but that would make the $400 at least $450 or more.

I'd rather have a SAR (and I did pick one over a WASR), but in reality a good WASR is almost no different. If you get a WASR check how mags fit. Most lately have been on the tight side, which is actually good, because tight is easy to fix. A few minutes with a file or dremel will fix it up. If mags are loose, its tougher to fix (although loose mags should still function 100%, its just a thing that may bug some people).

Accuracy can be good or bad, but a lot of it is probably due to poor sights. Optics, even just a red dot, may shrink group size down a lot. Most AKs are more accurate than people give them credit for. I would have thought AKs sucked for accuracy too, after getting 6-8 inch groups out of my SAR-1 at 100 yards, until I put a red dot on it and shot a .8 inch group at 60-65 yards.

Edit: US recievers. The global and ewbanks are the top two US receivers right now. They are pretty good, but I would still rather have a factory made AK, even if its from romania. The only time it makes sense to go with a build is to get something you cant get factory built (like sidefolders and underfolders), or if it would be a lot more money to get something factory. With just a standard AKM clone, theres no reason to pay more for a kit build when a SAR is as close to a real euro AKM as you can get, unless you just really want a nicer finish.

And in case you think I just hate US receivers, my most expensive AK is built on a global. Its a AKS-74 built from a bulgarian parts kit, but along with what I said up above, I couldnt have gotten it factory, and at the time it would have cost a lot more to convert a factory built rifle.

 

[grimjaw]

RE: SKS vs WASR/SAR accuracy, I have limited experience with both. A friend's Norinco SKS could maintain marginally tighter groups than my SAR1 at 100 yards.

The finish on the SAR1 I think is painted on; at least mine is. If I sent it off to get it parkerized, I'd have spent more money than if I got a VEPR (which are still not in stock anywhere, dag nabbit).

I'd go with a VEPR before a Vector, and if I wanted something more SHTF-ish, I'd get an Arsenal.

jmm

 

[briang2ad]

Thanks..

Gents: Thanks much - I seem to get better responses on AKs here than on some of the AK sites.

I suppose Arsenals are all over $500?

I would spring for an AK for $500 IF I knew it was quantifiably better than a SAR or WASR.

If the WASR is as durable/reliable/accurate, I would like to have a threaded muzzle. The Bayonet lug is moot. The threaded muzzle would make it easier for a brake, which some say is a good thing.

I would like a dimple, but I hear reliability is fine with the WASR, and if they simply add a sheet of metal on each side, this COULD be more secure than a dimple.

BTW, is trigger slap more prevalent on a WASR or SAR? How about bent sights?

Thanks again.

 

[grimjaw]

I suppose Arsenals are all over $500?

With rare exception, yes. You might find some stamped models that are around $500. If you do a search on this forum, you'll find that most people talk up the Arsenal, VEPR, and Krebs AK's more than any others. Of the three, the VEPR is the least expensive, but new it will still cost you over $500. The drawback on the VEPR is that it won't take most AK furniture.

I don't know much about the dimples other than I'm told I have a cute one when I smile.

jmm

 

[briang2ad]

Receivers...

If you want a threaded barrel and bayo lug you should probably get the WASR. You can add them to a SAR, but that would make the $400 at least $450 or more.

I'd rather have a SAR (and I did pick one over a WASR), but in reality a good WASR is almost no different. If you get a WASR check how mags fit. Most lately have been on the tight side, which is actually good, because tight is easy to fix. A few minutes with a file or dremel will fix it up. If mags are loose, its tougher to fix (although loose mags should still function 100%, its just a thing that may bug some people).

Accuracy can be good or bad, but a lot of it is probably due to poor sights. Optics, even just a red dot, may shrink group size down a lot. Most AKs are more accurate than people give them credit for. I would have thought AKs sucked for accuracy too, after getting 6-8 inch groups out of my SAR-1 at 100 yards, until I put a red dot on it and shot a .8 inch group at 60-65 yards.

Edit: US recievers. The global and ewbanks are the top two US receivers right now. They are pretty good, but I would still rather have a factory made AK, even if its from romania. The only time it makes sense to go with a build is to get something you cant get factory built (like sidefolders and underfolders), or if it would be a lot more money to get something factory. With just a standard AKM clone, theres no reason to pay more for a kit build when a SAR is as close to a real euro AKM as you can get, unless you just really want a nicer finish.

And in case you think I just hate US receivers, my most expensive AK is built on a global. Its a AKS-74 built from a bulgarian parts kit, but along with what I said up above, I couldnt have gotten it factory, and at the time it would have cost a lot more to convert a factory built rifle.

Clange: Do you think the recievers on SARs and WASRs are better than the US made ones?

Also, does the SAR have a painted finish? (I would prefer parked - I can Gun-Kote that).

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

The SAR and WASR finish is parkerized

 

[MechAg94]

I have a Vepr K and I would say it is reliably, durable, and accurate. I have heard mixed reports on WASR accuracy. I wasn't looking to make a lot of modifications so the furniture on my Vepr so that issue didn't matter to me. If I break down and go for a 5.45 AK in the future, folding/adjustable stocks might become more important.

 

[briang2ad]

VEPR

MechAg94:

I would like to get a VEPR, BUT, I want a 7.62X39, and don't want to wait and hope they come in, only to wait some more, etc. They seem very hard to get, especially in 7.62. Also, what is the wieght of the VEPR? I know they take Ak mags, but the other access. are different. And... I think I want REGULAR furniture.

On the parked finish - I suppose I could spray Gun kote on and bake away?

 

[clange]

Clange: Do you think the recievers on SARs and WASRs are better than the US made ones?

Also, does the SAR have a painted finish? (I would prefer parked - I can Gun-Kote that).

Yes, I think they are better. The SAR (and the WASR isnt too far from a SAR) are made on the same dies as the romanian AIM. You can see the proof of this on the side of the SAR receiver, theres a Y stamping for the auto sear hole. The only difference between a SAR and a romanian service rifle is they dont drill the 'third hole', and the rail doesnt have a cutout for the auto sear.

You can buy a SAR and then thread the muzzle for pretty cheap. You can rent a threading kit from a guy on ak47.net for $27. I did mine over the summer and it was very easy. I took my time and it only took me 35 min. Once its threaded you can simply loctite something on, or install a detent pin as was intended. You can buy a pin and spring for like $8, or cut an old drill bit and use a spring from a bic pen. To install the detent pin you have to punch out the pin in the front sight block (it holds the detent pin from coming out). So you can do the whole thing for under $30, then use whatever brake you want.

As for the finish, I'm not really sure. You could ask the guys over at ak47.nets 'build it yourself' forum - http://ak47.net/forums/forum.html?b=4&f=51 about refinishing options.

 

[aaronrkelly]

I have a WASR - paid $329 with standard stock, threaded barrel and compensator, bayonet lug and bayonet as well as all the other accessories. I ordered it online.

I received a great little rifle. The stock was very blonde and took some stain really well. The magwell was cut very nicely. The finish was fairly scratched up but not thru the park anywhere, just scuffed for the most part. The trigger is marked TAPCO and exhibits *NO* trigger slap. Their is no sight cant either. I have fired 800 rounds without issue. I would not hesitate to buy it again.

I also have a MAK90. I had heard these were better guns but I had never handled one until about 5 days ago. Someone mentioned they had one they were wanting to sell. The price was $250 - I didnt hesitate to buy the gun.

The fit and finish is *FAR* superior to my WASR - there is no comparison. It functions just the same. The only downside is the MAK90 has no threaded barrel or bayo lug. I dont find that a big deal honestly and even if you did you couldnt argue with the price. I have checked them out on Gunbroker and it seems they run anywhere form $375 to $450 depending on condition. I would recommend this gun to anyone wanting a cheap gun with better fit and finish then the WASR.

You cant go wrong with the WASR though.....its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. More money buys you more gun.....but its a commie gun that was meant to be loose and rough.

 

[briang2ad]

Thanks

Looks as though if you find a good WASR, you only lose the dimples, but gain the threaded muzzle and bayonet lug. (And maybe a Tapco trigger and better trigger pull...)

Clange: IF you do get a SAR and thread the muzzle, do you have to add any other parts to make the rifle acceptable to Diane Feinstein?

Aaronkelly: How does you Mak90 shoot compared to the WASR?

BTW, I was in a Pawn shop recently. Sad. Several months ago I was there and had noticed at least one Ak, probably a MAADI. I was NOT in the hunt for another AK then, so I didn't look at it. (This shop is crazy on pistol prices, so I didn't even ask about the rifles). I was there last week LOOKING for AKs, and a salesman explained that a guy stopped by two months ago and bought both (and they were MAADIs)- one with a thumbhole, one with a regular stock, for $220 a piece!!! This is how it always is... What you want is NOT on sale.

 

[clange]

Clange: IF you do get a SAR and thread the muzzle, do you have to add any other parts to make the rifle acceptable to Diane Feinstein?

It would never be acceptable to that bitch lol.

But, you'd just have to use a US made muzzle device, and those are pretty easy to find. There are US made slant brakes (which would be 'correct' for the rifle), muzzle nuts, flash hiders, etc, all in 14x1LH. The whole thing is you cant have more than 10 imported parts on the rifle. A standard SAR will have exactly 10 imported parts. If you add a countable part (muzzle device) it has to be US made so the imported total stays at 10.

 

[aaronrkelly]

Aaronkelly: How does you Mak90 shoot compared to the WASR?

I havent shot the MAK90 enough to tell much, I have just shot maybe 100 rds thru it to check function. The went where they were supposed to....

 

[MTMilitiaman]

My WASR is about minute of water jug at 150 yards and easily COM at 200. If you get the WASR, it may take a little work, but you can have a very nice rifle for $400 or a little more. To the price of the AK I would add:

1. $40 for a Mojo ghost ring sight. If you dislike the sights that are on there as much as I do, you can appreciate the sight picture of the Mojos.

2. $20 for the M249 style grip. The standard AK grip feels like a spatula handle to me.

3. An improved trigger group. If you want to go all out you can get the Red Star Arms or Power Custom unit ($80 to 90 but the RSA, for one, is sweet. My brother's WASR has an arguably better trigger pull than his hunting rifle.), but if you are cheap or just poor like me, you opt for the TAPCO G2 unit (about $40), which is apparently already coming in some rifles. If I replaced the trigger group, which may be an issue as both our WASRs had vicious trigger slap, I would take that opprotunity to slap in a $12 retaining plate as it will make assembly and disassembly of the fire control group much easier.

So for about $100 more than the price of the rifle, possibly less if the rifle comes with a decent trigger, you can replace the biggest problems with the rifle--two of which are, IMO present on most AKs regardless of cost. Chances are I wouldn't like the sights or pistol grip of a $700 Arsenal any more than the ones on my $300 WASR.

Some mags might be a problem but most fit right in. The polymer Bulgarians don't go too hot. But even then you can spend five minutes with a Dremel tool to polish the mag well and be cherry for even them.

And +1 on the MAK advice as well. My uncle has one of them and a 75 drum laying around and it is built noticeably better than my brother and I's Romanian AKs.

 

[briang2ad]

Yes, I think they are better. The SAR (and the WASR isnt too far from a SAR) are made on the same dies as the romanian AIM. You can see the proof of this on the side of the SAR receiver, theres a Y stamping for the auto sear hole. The only difference between a SAR and a romanian service rifle is they dont drill the 'third hole', and the rail doesnt have a cutout for the auto sear.

.

Clange - what are the WASR recievers made from? Without the dimples, I would think they are something entirely new.

 

[clange]

Clange - what are the WASR recievers made from? Without the dimples, I would think they are something entirely new.

They're just stamped with different dies. Everything else, materials, heat treating, measurements, etc should be the same.

 

[briang2ad]

To summarize...

It seems that:

With the SAR you get dimples, and what folks consider the proper configuration (of course without bayonet lug and muzzle brake).

With the WASR you don't get dimples, but you do get lug, muzzle brake with threads, and now probably a TAPCO trigger group. (Also a side scope mount - don't know if SARs had this).

Other things are 'equal'

Maybe I'll go WASR...

 

[Silent-Snail]

Which models come from what country?

Have the imported ones already gone through a round of the parts game?

 

[MechAg94]

MechAg94:

I would like to get a VEPR, BUT, I want a 7.62X39, and don't want to wait and hope they come in, only to wait some more, etc. They seem very hard to get, especially in 7.62. Also, what is the wieght of the VEPR? I know they take Ak mags, but the other access. are different. And... I think I want REGULAR furniture.

On the parked finish - I suppose I could spray Gun kote on and bake away?

Well, I didn't really have to wait on my rifle, I was waiting on getting it shipped, the guy had the rifle. I understand though. I have only seen one Vepr at a gun show before. I bought mine because I didn't know AK's and I wanted to make sure I didn't get a junker. If you are not sure, you could go ahead and get the WASR, but just don't go into it with high expectations. I am 50/50 on folding stocks. I like them but for a big heavy rifle, I would prefer a solid butt stock that I could smack someone with if necessary. If I end up getting a 5.45, I think I'll want one in a little carbine though.

The Vepr is a hair over 9 lbs. Not very light and they are a bit front heavy, but it is a very tough rifle. I don't notice the front heavy feel when shooting, just when carrying it.
I can't help you on coatings.

 

[DMK]

On the parked finish - I suppose I could spray Gun kote on and bake away?

Yep.

Degrease it really good. Soak it in mineral spirits, bake it about 30 min, then degrease it with mineral spirits again. Let it dry overnight, then hose it down with brake parts cleaner and handle it only with latex gloves on. My SAR1 had persistant grease or cosmoline down in every little nook and cranny.

I gave it a coat of Gunkote's K-phos before the final finish too.

 

[DMK]

Which models come from what country?

Have the imported ones already gone through a round of the parts game?

Let's see... SARS and WASRS are Romanian. Arsenals are Bulgarian. Saigas and Veprs are Russian. Norincos and MAKs are Chinese. MAADI's are Egyptian. Krebs are customs and could be based on AKs from any country.

If they come from a reputable builder or importer, have pistol grips and take normal AK hi-cap mags, then they will already have the 5 or 6 required U.S. parts. (be careful though, some use mag followers and base plates as some of the U.S. parts)

 

[Silent-Snail]

Good to know.

 

[briang2ad]

DMK - thanks!

Yep.

Degrease it really good. Soak it in mineral spirits, bake it about 30 min, then degrease it with mineral spirits again. Let it dry overnight, then hose it down with brake parts cleaner and handle it only with latex gloves on. My SAR1 had persistant grease or cosmoline down in every little nook and cranny.

I gave it a coat of Gunkote's K-phos before the final finish too.

DMK - thanks - first person I have run into that actually did this. I also have the KPhos. I am half tempted to mix green and black to get a classic patina look. I am in the hunt for an AK, and missed an opportunity nto nail a SAR last month (hope I see them again). BUT, If I find a WASR that takes my EG mags, I'll get one. I suppose I'll have to strip off the stock, but I will leave the insides alone or just spray them also.

 

[DMK]

DMK - thanks - first person I have run into that actually did this. I also have the KPhos.

I Gunkoted my SAR1 flat black just last week. I only sandblasted the inside to blast the built up gunk out and the front sight base because it was all beat up and I had ground off the sharp edges with a dremel. The wood was stripped with BIX stripper, stained and then finished with a couple coats of Formsby's Tung Oil Finish.

I am half tempted to mix green and black to get a classic patina look.

Well, I found out from experience that if you bake Satin Gray(2403) Gunkote about 20 minutes too long, it will start to turn green like dark gray parkerizing that had been soaked in cosmoline for 40 years. If you forget about it and bake it for 45 to 60 minutes too long it will turn dark golden brown.

It's a bad pic, but this AR was supposed to be gray. It turned out a dark gray green. I kinda like it though.