I am planning to go up to Alaska this summer to do some backcountry river fishing (salmon and trout mostly), and I plan to take a couple firearms with me for protection. I've got a .45 Colt Redhawk that I'll likely bring, but for a long gun, I am not sure whether to take my 12 gauge or my .45-70 (please limit any suggestions to these two, I am not planning to buy another gun). My gut was to go with the .45-70, but in looking at some of the Taylor KO values for slugs, I was really surprised. So which load would you prefer?
Alaska bear defense: 12g or .45-70
- Thread starter eldon519
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beretta/ak
Member
Speaking from experience. Take the shotgun. I've been charged by moose and have had to shoot. 12 gauge puts em down. Been bluff charged by some big bears but haven't had to shoot. Your 45/70 would probably work as well. They make some really nice bear slugs now. Can't think of the name of them off the top of my head. Ill look tomorrow and post it.
Cryogaijin
Member
I carry a 12 gauge personally.
HorseSoldier
Member
I use the 12 gauge and Brenneke slug combo and am extremely confident with them.
45-70 with Garrets is well thought of by many as well.
So flip a coin and then go to the range and practice snap shooting from whatever position you plan to carry from. In a worst case bear attack you will be right on the edge of your ability to react to the attack. So look at how fast you can get a pair of rounds off with reasonable accuracy (like pie plate at seven meters -- if a bear charges from 30 meters you might be getting your gun in the fight at seven, if you're lucky).
And +1 on the mention of moose also. Personally I'm more scared of those things than bear. The latter usually attack for comprehensible reasons. Moose are less predictable. (And depending on where you go, buffalo can be a potential corcern also.)
45-70 with Garrets is well thought of by many as well.
So flip a coin and then go to the range and practice snap shooting from whatever position you plan to carry from. In a worst case bear attack you will be right on the edge of your ability to react to the attack. So look at how fast you can get a pair of rounds off with reasonable accuracy (like pie plate at seven meters -- if a bear charges from 30 meters you might be getting your gun in the fight at seven, if you're lucky).
And +1 on the mention of moose also. Personally I'm more scared of those things than bear. The latter usually attack for comprehensible reasons. Moose are less predictable. (And depending on where you go, buffalo can be a potential corcern also.)
Shadow 7D
Member
Come ask treadwell, oh wait, 'his bears' ate him...
Most of the time, using your brain gets you out of trouble,
but sometimes trouble keeps coming.
Most of the time, using your brain gets you out of trouble,
but sometimes trouble keeps coming.
Cryogaijin
Member
By and large, if you leave the bears alone, the bears will leave you alone. Most bear injuries in the state are due to someone being stupid in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Don't get between a Sow and her Cubs, don't get between a bear in spring and a source of food, and if a bear comes trundling along, don't freeze. Get out of its way. A good number of "maulings" in the state are due to someone being in the path of a bear, not moving, and just getting bapped out of the way.
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Shadow 7D
Member
Shh, you,re kinda new here, but every heman bear kill'en HERO comes out in these threads, they must be under every rock in the lower 48....
Interjecting stuff like,
BEAR SPRAY IS EASY TO USE
AND MUCH EASIER ON YOUR WALLET WHEN THE WILDLIFE TROOPERS GET DONE WITH YOU....
just gets rebuffed,
cause you aren't saying which is better, a jeep mounted howitzer or a Linebaugh .800 ultra mag revolver with the 16 shot cylinder....
Interjecting stuff like,
BEAR SPRAY IS EASY TO USE
AND MUCH EASIER ON YOUR WALLET WHEN THE WILDLIFE TROOPERS GET DONE WITH YOU....
just gets rebuffed,
cause you aren't saying which is better, a jeep mounted howitzer or a Linebaugh .800 ultra mag revolver with the 16 shot cylinder....
Shadow 7D
Member
BTW, cryo
you valley trash???
(sorry couldn't resist)
you valley trash???
(sorry couldn't resist)
Cryogaijin
Member
Oh, MUCH worse than valley trash. I have quite a pedigree, you see. I come to alaska by way of New York, California (Bay area) and Seattle.
Is amusing to talk to my mom (who still lives in soviet Californiastan) about doing wilderness photography. She Does Not Approve.
Then again, I put in 7 years up in squarebanks, so. . .
Shadow 7D
Member
OHH, NO, are you a Homer Hippy or Juneau liberal???
Then again, I would take one of those long before I try to talk Alaska to a Kommi, er. Califorinian, as a Reformed one myself,
It's hard to explain that brown bears are for looking at, TEDDY BEARS are for hugging, not the other way around.
But then I'm a city boy up here, dreaming of getting out in nature.
Then again, I would take one of those long before I try to talk Alaska to a Kommi, er. Califorinian, as a Reformed one myself,
It's hard to explain that brown bears are for looking at, TEDDY BEARS are for hugging, not the other way around.
But then I'm a city boy up here, dreaming of getting out in nature.
Guiding101
Member
Either is a great choice. As was posted by horsesoldier, speed of delivery is what will make the difference. I myself can cycle a pump action shotgun much fast than I can work a lever or a bolt. A second thought on the slug senario is to load your first round as a slug, and the remaining as heavy buckshot......when the distance gets really close, the spreading pattern of shot opens a larger wound channel.......now that may stir up a hornets nest, so shoot a phone book at 6 feet with a slug, and again with #1 buck.
xXxplosive
Member
I remember back when reading about Park Munsey...#1 Master Guide Lic. who gave up the 375 H&H Mag rifle for the Mod. 12 Winchester with staggered loads of 00 and slugs for persuing wounded bear in the Alders.....guess he knew his business.
For personal protection, I'd go with the Shotty but a Pump not a Semi Auto...............
For personal protection, I'd go with the Shotty but a Pump not a Semi Auto...............
oneounceload
member
Which one can you readily and easily handle while standing in a stream fly fishing?
I was attacked in NY by a black bear at night. Don't leave food (especially fish) around; they smell it from miles away.
Only a tree-hugger would ask if bears attack people. Yeh, it happens rarely but lots of folks have become bear lunch.
I'd go with the shotgun. If nothing else, it is more versitile than the rifle.
Only a tree-hugger would ask if bears attack people. Yeh, it happens rarely but lots of folks have become bear lunch.
I'd go with the shotgun. If nothing else, it is more versitile than the rifle.
Float Pilot
Member
A shotgun with Brenneke Slugs is nice for stopping a bear without having to worry as much about an errant round killing another fisherman half a mile down the river.
I have seen more than a few outsiders show up at crowded fishing holes carrying 45-70s and 375H&Hs. That can be a real social no-no in heavily fished areas.
It is rare to see too many real Alaskans in those areas since the crowd of camo-wearing heavily armed tourist tend to remind us of one of the more recent zombie movies.
Do not bother with buck-shot. I have personally seen it fail to penetrate a medium sized bear's skull at 8 feet.
I treat bears like an IRS agent and thus over the past half century plus I have never been charged unless I deserved it.
I have seen more than a few outsiders show up at crowded fishing holes carrying 45-70s and 375H&Hs. That can be a real social no-no in heavily fished areas.
It is rare to see too many real Alaskans in those areas since the crowd of camo-wearing heavily armed tourist tend to remind us of one of the more recent zombie movies.
Do not bother with buck-shot. I have personally seen it fail to penetrate a medium sized bear's skull at 8 feet.
I treat bears like an IRS agent and thus over the past half century plus I have never been charged unless I deserved it.
Shadow 7D
Member
HEHE, how true
and that was part of the reason my doc would never tell me about the hole he fish on 20mi, said either you found it honest, or the other regulars would hang you upside-down for telling.
and that was part of the reason my doc would never tell me about the hole he fish on 20mi, said either you found it honest, or the other regulars would hang you upside-down for telling.
Sheepdog1968
Member
Which are you more skilled at using and less likely to screw up with when there is extreme stress?
xXxplosive
Member
Just to add..........saw a show the other night and in it they had to send in LE to track and kill a maurading Brown Bear in Alaska which was responsible for 3 attacks in and around one Park.........naturally LE could have carried anything they wanted, they all chose 12Ga. shotguns....no rifles and they did kill the bear....no problem.
KodiakBeer
member
Either one will work just fine. If your .45-70 has stock sights, get some ghost rings.
Also, forget the ballistics on your shotgun and buy based on where the slugs hit at ten yards or so. A bears brain is the size of a softball and you'll be lucky to even get a shot off, much less use any Kentucky windage. Slugs that hit 4 or 6 inches high at close range (often the case) are a waste of time.
Do bears really hurt people? Yeah, they do. Every year in Alaska as many as a dozen people get mauled. 95% of bear encounters can (and should) be handled with pepper spray or just shooting into the ground or air. But, once in awhile it's serious and they just rush you, almost always with no warning (you don't see them first!).
Me, ten years ago. I was scalped, and had other damage all over my body. This was taken an hour or so after the attack. They flipped my scalp back up on my head and put a watch cap over it. My arms and legs are pressure bandaged. I'm sitting on my left buttock to keep the blood from oozing out because it was nearly torn off. The bear did all this in less than 30 seconds. There was no warning. The bear was lying in the brush and just rushed as I walked past on a trail.
Also, forget the ballistics on your shotgun and buy based on where the slugs hit at ten yards or so. A bears brain is the size of a softball and you'll be lucky to even get a shot off, much less use any Kentucky windage. Slugs that hit 4 or 6 inches high at close range (often the case) are a waste of time.
Do bears really hurt people? Yeah, they do. Every year in Alaska as many as a dozen people get mauled. 95% of bear encounters can (and should) be handled with pepper spray or just shooting into the ground or air. But, once in awhile it's serious and they just rush you, almost always with no warning (you don't see them first!).
Me, ten years ago. I was scalped, and had other damage all over my body. This was taken an hour or so after the attack. They flipped my scalp back up on my head and put a watch cap over it. My arms and legs are pressure bandaged. I'm sitting on my left buttock to keep the blood from oozing out because it was nearly torn off. The bear did all this in less than 30 seconds. There was no warning. The bear was lying in the brush and just rushed as I walked past on a trail.
Thank you for all the advice so far. For whatever reason I had always thought slugs were poorly regarded for bears, but it is nice to see both are viable options.
To respond to a few questions and/or comments:
I don't figure I'll actually have either on my while I'm actually fishing, that would be what the .45 Redhawk would be for. I think we'd just like to have a worthy long-gun or two around camp when we're filleting fish, cooking or what have you. A number of us are hikers and know the protocol for food/bears/and campsites.
Additionally, I'm not particularly skilled with either weapon, but will practice before the trip. For what it's worth, the 12ga has a 28" barrel though I'd consider getting a shorter one and maybe some ghost ring sights for it. The Guide Gun already has XS ghost ring sights on it.
I've got a little experience with black bears from camping, and I know that most situations can be avoided, and there isn't a 100% effective defense for all situations. I think our party's mindset is simply that if the worst were to come to pass in the wilderness with no help around(something like Kodiakbeer's or rajb123's situations which I'm sorry to read about), we'd like to have the tools available to bring it to an end.
Because I'm expecting to have some lengthy free periods coming up, I'd also like to take a first aid class or two, especially something geared towards backcountry situations where help may be days away.
To respond to a few questions and/or comments:
I don't figure I'll actually have either on my while I'm actually fishing, that would be what the .45 Redhawk would be for. I think we'd just like to have a worthy long-gun or two around camp when we're filleting fish, cooking or what have you. A number of us are hikers and know the protocol for food/bears/and campsites.
Additionally, I'm not particularly skilled with either weapon, but will practice before the trip. For what it's worth, the 12ga has a 28" barrel though I'd consider getting a shorter one and maybe some ghost ring sights for it. The Guide Gun already has XS ghost ring sights on it.
I've got a little experience with black bears from camping, and I know that most situations can be avoided, and there isn't a 100% effective defense for all situations. I think our party's mindset is simply that if the worst were to come to pass in the wilderness with no help around(something like Kodiakbeer's or rajb123's situations which I'm sorry to read about), we'd like to have the tools available to bring it to an end.
Because I'm expecting to have some lengthy free periods coming up, I'd also like to take a first aid class or two, especially something geared towards backcountry situations where help may be days away.
Guiding101
Member
I would like to add to a comment from above.......if you have seen buckshot fail on a medium bear.......he fired too soon........at point blank range...the range that the game and fish will not charge you for wrongfully killing a bear.....buckshot is one of the finest rounds on the market. Nothing kills like a shotgun from a barrels lenght away. There is a reason Jim Corbettes and other PH's relied so heavily upon a shotgun and buckshot. I trust my life and my clients life to if every trip out into the field.
brnmuenchow
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Both are good choices, I would most likley take the .45-70Govt.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
A comment about buckshot: Many years back, an Austin, TX, cop returned fire with his 12-gauge on a robber. 00 Buck load in the shotgun.
The robber was behind a jewelry display counter, and the front of the counter was plate glass. The shot impacted at an included angle of about thirty degrees, and bounced off. (Further shots led to the demise of the robber.)
Later, the armorer of the PD did some testing. First, he replicated the event, and had the same result of the 00 Buck bouncing off the plate glass.
He then tried 000 Buck and shattered the glass.
I'm told that 000 Buck is hard come by, but if you do choose buckshot, try to get 000.
The robber was behind a jewelry display counter, and the front of the counter was plate glass. The shot impacted at an included angle of about thirty degrees, and bounced off. (Further shots led to the demise of the robber.)
Later, the armorer of the PD did some testing. First, he replicated the event, and had the same result of the 00 Buck bouncing off the plate glass.
He then tried 000 Buck and shattered the glass.
I'm told that 000 Buck is hard come by, but if you do choose buckshot, try to get 000.
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