Alaska bear defense: 12g or .45-70

[Guiding101]

Art......I agree with you on the 000 buck when the range is extended at all beyond point blank.....I have always had a loading of a slug first....followed by a buckshot blend....of round 2 as 000 buck followed by the remaining rounds of #1 buck. Years back I recall a tale of 3 deer hunters in AK hunting sitka blacktale. Two had tagged out and were out waterfowling. They left their companion sitting in a ground blind and went bird hunting. They heard 2 faint shots in the distance and returned to find a bear feeding on their friend. The bear charged and was dispatched at point blank range from a 12ga with 3" T-shot. It was found that the animal had taken two round at close range from their friends 7mm rem mag. One to the chest, and 1 to the head. The stopping T-shot round was fired from 5 feet.

 

[Cosmoline]

The .45-70 gives you more range and a slab-sided configuration. The shotgun is or can be easily made a lb or two lighter than the levergun. It's more tube-shaped. If you're fishing, up close defense is probably the priority as is light weight. Depending on how you like to carry, flat or round profile will be more or less comfortable. For backpack scabbards I really prefer flat-sided receivers.

On balance, though, Alaska being what it is and rivers being wet, expect whatever you bring to get wet. That would usually favor the less expensive of the two with the action more tolerant of that sort of abuse, so the shotgun would be the typical choice. I remember a few years ago after a season fishing around the Susitna with a Mossberg 500, I opened the action up to clean it and about half a cup of river silt poured out! No idea how it got there, but the shotgun was still working fine.

Load and sight in your barrel with HARDCAST SLUGS, though. Buckshot doesn't have as much penetration.

Which are you more skilled at using and less likely to screw up with when there is extreme stress?

This is a very good point. And of course whatever you choose, practice with it using your bear loads before you take it into the field. Not just to sight in with the loads, but to see how the firearm copes with the recoil.

Also, please don't shoot our moose!

 

[WardenWolf]

Well, you've heard the phrase "Get off the X" before, but it applies to bears, too. They're big, heavy, lumbering animals. Once they're charging, they can't quickly change directions. Standing your ground and shooting may just get you bowled over.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Bears are not "lumbering" animals when they are in predatory mode. They are lightning fast and move like a fighting dog. We've all seen two dogs get in a fight and perhaps stuck our hand in to try and separate them only to draw back a bloody hand without even seeing the bite. That's how fast a bear moves in an attack. They are very fast and very agile.

When they actually attack (as opposed to making various threat displays) they either move in quietly and rush, or are disturbed at close range and rush, from a distance of ten to twenty yards. There's rarely any warning other than possibly some breaking brush about 1 second before the bear is on you. Grizzlies have been reliably timed at 40 mph, and if you get a shot off it better be in the center of the face.

All of those old rules apply. Most attacks are because bears are surprised at close range. So, if you make noise the odds of an actual attack drop to near zero. You may have a bear make a display to protect his fishing hole, but those kind of events are easily dealt with by just edging away or blasting him with some pepper spray.

Sometimes (often) brown bears will follow you along streamside trails. I don't know why they do that - maybe they are just going the same way you are? Or maybe they are curious or just want to keep you moving out of their zone. Whatever, this again isn't an overt threat and is best dealt with by firing a couple of shots in the air or with pepper spray.

Anyway, I deal with brown bears at least once a week in summer. I don't have any problems. The one time I did have a problem was while stalking a blacktail and surprising a sleeping bear because of my own stealth. If you stay aware, make a little noise and avoid heavy brush you won't have any problems, especially in summer when bears are fat and happy on the salmon.

 

[JerryM]

I would opt for the shotgun with slugs. I think it would handle easier, and probably be lighter than a 45-70.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[phoglund]

Wow KodiakBeer, I'd wondered how you got to be so pretty.

I've got little experience with bears although I live in a place where they are about as common as they get in the lower 48. (Near Yellowstone). I'll not give advice about something I know little about. I will say...there is a person here who has proven direct experience with bruins, I suggest you take his advice, looks to me as if he paid for his experience the hard way!

 

[Loosedhorse]

Well let's see:

Brenneke Black Magic 1 3/8 oz, 1500 fps nominal, 3000 ft-lb.
Garrett .45-70 420gr, 1850 fps, 3200 ft-lb
Buffalo Bore .45 Colt, 325gr, 1325 fps, 1265 ft-lb
Double-Tap .454 Casull 400gr, 1400 fps, 1740 ft-lb
Bufffalo Bore .460 S&W 360gr, 1900 fps, 2860 ft-lb
Buffalo Bore .475 Linebaugh, 440gr (c. 1 oz), 1325 fps, 1710 ft-lb
Buffalo Bore .35 Remington, 220 gr, 2200fps, 2360 ft-lb
Double-Tap .375 H&H Mag, 350gr, 2450 fps, 4665 ft-lb
Double-Tap .458 Lott, 550gr, 2195 fps, 5913 ft-lb

For me, "just in case" guns tend to be handguns. That .460 and .475 look okay.

If I'm carrying a long gun, I guess the 12 gauge is the best if I don't want to buy a rifle. If I do, not sure why I wouldn't get something beside .45-70.

'Course, living in MA, I've never been mauled by a brown bear--but I'm still pretty!

Oh, and back to the OP's question: which one do you shoot better? I think the .45-70 likely has the higher sectional density, but I don't think that matters.

 

[Gryffydd]

A shotgun with Brenneke Slugs is nice for stopping a bear without having to worry as much about an errant round killing another fisherman half a mile down the river.
I have seen more than a few outsiders show up at crowded fishing holes carrying 45-70s and 375H&Hs. That can be a real social no-no in heavily fished areas.

I have a feeling a 12ga slug can travel for well over half a mile and still be dangerous. If it's not still dangerous after half a mile it probably won't hurt a brown bear much at 10 feet either.

 

[saturno_v]

If it's not still dangerous after half a mile it probably won't hurt a brown bear much at 10 feet either.

Not exactly true...the Brenneke Black Magic slug has horrendous aerodynamics, much worse than a round ball I suspect, and it loses velocity and energy very very quickly and, most importantly, it drops like a rock.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The problem with looking at the ballistics of shotgun slugs is that most shotguns don't have adjustable sights. In my experience most slugs will shoot high, often as much as six inches high at close range.

Ballistics don't count for anything unless your slug hits right where that golden bead is pointing, so choose the slug that hits POA, not the one the one that has the best ballistics. A hit in the face with an old fashioned Foster slug will pile up any bear on earth. A crease on top of a bears head won't help you, even if it's made by a howitzer.

 

[Gryffydd]

Not exactly true...the Brenneke Black Magic slug has horrendous aerodynamics, much worse than a round ball I suspect, and it loses velocity and energy very very quickly and, most importantly, it drops like a rock.

I have no doubt that the external ballistics on the Brenneke Black Magic slugs are terrible. I still wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one half a mile downrange from the muzzle.

I suppose it's more likely to have dropped to the ground over the course of that distance, but it would take a truly errant shot from anything to get that far anyway as a charging bear's head is not likely to be higher off the ground than your shoulder, so we're talking some muzzle elevation in any case.

 

[Cosmoline]

I have a feeling a 12ga slug can travel for well over half a mile and still be dangerous. If it's not still dangerous after half a mile it probably won't hurt a brown bear much at 10 feet either.

You'd have to lob it like a mortar and even then it would be a feat. Per Brenneke, the energy has dropped by almost a third at a mere 100 yards, with velocity from 1500 to 955. They don't even bother listing stats beyond that.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/241.html

That makes it a less-than-ideal hunting round for sure. The .45-70 is much better at range. But for DLP ranges it's great.

 

[lloveless]

I've been in Alaska for 10 months now. I've seen brown bear, grizzlies, and polar bear(in the Anchorage zoo) and I did stay once upon a time in a Holiday Inn Express(@$170.00/night I won't again). The Eskimos hunted and dealt with bears before they had guns. They lost a few Eskimos also. They now hunt bear with light guns (.243). Caribou with .22 lr. I questioned them about their choice of calibers. They shrugged their shoulders and said it was cheap and worked. I voted for the 12 ga with Brenneke's. A Mossberg 500 mariner would be my choice of weapon, and .44 mag Redhawk as back up with 300 gr. bullets at around 1000 fps.
ll

 

[Hunt480]

If a Grizz charges you, you may be a better shot with the shotgun while you messin up you pants. IMO

 

[DM~]

The Eskimos hunted and dealt with bears before they had guns. They lost a few Eskimos also. They now hunt bear with light guns (.243). Caribou with .22 lr.

Well, i was in Alaska for 25 years, i spend a lot of time hunting big bears, and also spent quite a bit of time around native villages.

From what i saw, the natives turned their dogs loose on big bears, walked in close, and kept shooting until they anchored the bear. As for caribou, what i saw was them using mostly mini 14's... They would shoot rapid fire into herds, and retrive the ones that fell. Those that didn't, they didn't follow up, and i saw too many of them gut shot!

I could tell you some stories, but i'll spare you!

DM