Alaskan/Bear handgun

[Tokugawa]

Yikes! A handgun? now that is a scary thought. Trust me, when ya'all come across a torqued off mama griz, a 12 gauge pump gun is going to seem like a .22. And load it with the Brenneke slugs, they are solid hard cast for good penetration. And some higher rifle sights, having your cheek on the comb sighting down a bead is a good way to cut yourself, especially if you wear glasses.
And one other thing, it is vastly easier to pack a shotgun if the balance point is just in front of the trigger guard- sometimes the long mag extensions can really make them awkward. Dont be afraid to take a file and smooth up the metal corners either- makes it way more comfy.

 

[sammydon31]

I am wondering how many people from these replies have even been to alaska, I do not want to guess how many speak from experience or have been 10 yrds from a bear that is 600+ lbs. 10mm, .357's, and yes even .44's are a sure invite to the beast hunting you down. I know, one should consider the stout large S&W mountain guns in .45lc, or .44mag, the nasty and stout short barreled .460 and .500 S&W would be my first choice since they are available. I would load the .500 in a heavy cast LRN with a moderate powder measure. Anyone wanting to try target practice with para's and eaa witnessor or glocks on a bear has never encountered one, that is angry. If winnie the pooh is the target...well, yeah get one of those multiple lead throwers... I think I like the idea of swiss pooh!! One round center mass on a bear anysize would drop, with one of the later 2 guns mentioned (.460, .500)..and remember with the .460 you can shoot .454's

 

[Jim Z.]

I have been to Kodiac where bears are a plenty!

 

[Shawn Michael]

Just a question.....

My one close encounter with a bears was terrifying. I am more of a hiker than a hunter. I have a .500 mag. After trying many barrel lengths and agonizing over optimal barrel length and muzzle velocity I got th 6.5 inch compensated hunter. I feel that carrying it in a holster across my chest is the best for speed and comfort. No matter how light Carrying a rife is more cumbersom.

The .500 is not that hard to shoot. The claims of recoil are just not true. That being said, I dont know about a short barreled version.

If you drill properly, you can draw and shoot pretty fast. When adrealine is up, your training better be down.

My question is this. What is the muzzle energy of a 12ga slug out of an 18 inch barrel? My 500gr hardcast .50s come in at about 2800ft/lbs How about penetration of the slug vs the hardcast .50?

I am NOT NOT implying that the pistol is equal to the 12ga slug, but I think might be closer than one would think. In terms of a shot 12 ga pump with slugs vs the .500 in double action I can get the shots of a little faster and thighter with the rifle but I can draw the pistol faster (I practice)

 

[Shawn Michael]

Looking around

Looking around it seems like the muzzle energy of most 12 gauge shotgun slugs is around 2400-2500, and the weights are around 1 and 1/6 to 1 and 1/2 oz so in the 500 grain neighbor hood. Cals were .50 to .68 for (for the sabots)

It would seem that a hard cast 500 grain .50 at 1450fps would out penetrate a 12 gauge slug and carry more energy.

That being said, working in the ER in Los Angeles and talking to a lot of LEOs it does seem clear to me that cal is what stops people so it is more complicated as to why a 45 will drop a methed up 250lb guy and some guys get shot full of 9mm and still keep running

 

[Shawn Michael]

last thought

lt does seem that with the snubbies you do lose a considerable amount of MV and if I understand correctly that is even more apparent with the faster lighter rounds, like .460 and .454.

with the 454,460, 480 and .500 I think that handguns offer a lot. I am more likely to carry and be able to draw my 500 when packing than get a rifle shot off IMO. I like to keep my hands free, and as I am a big persons the extra 71 oz of gun does not bug me too much

 

[carebear]

If you want apples-to-apples, check the figures for the hardcast bear slugs like Brennekes, not standard soft deer slugs.

I don't know that that would make a difference, but it'd be a bit more informative.

 

[Shawn Michael]

Good to know

I am honestly more curious than trying to makes a "this is better" case. I dont know a lot about shotgun ammo other than the basics

 

[carebear]

Oh, I wasn't challenging. Are the figures for the .500 from a 6" or so barrel?

 

[Shawn Michael]

They are from 8 and 3/8th. My understanding from others here is that with a heavy (500-600 gr) the .500 will get almost all of its velocity from a 7 inch barrel and in the case of going with a shorter barrel (6.5) the .500 with a heavy bullet sufferes little where as a lighter faster (.460) might not be so ideal and get more out of a longer barrel. The longer barrels just did not feel pistol like to me.

Corbon makes .50 hunting ammo 275gr DPX 1665fps...the energy is much lower than the hornady 500 gr but the handgun hunters rave about it...it is solid copper bullet with a cavern of a hollow point...shot a box, it is very controllable.

there are up to 720 gr bullets available for the .500 I am not sure what is better in the case of something like a bear, slow and heavy or something lighter. 440 to 500 seems like an optimal, not sure

 

[rolltide]

The Brenneke Black Magic 3" mag is 1 3/8 oz (660gr) sabot slug at 1500fps yeilding a little over 3000ft/lbs of energy. This is what Brenneke recommends for dangerous game defense. There is a Black Magic 2 3/4" version with 1oz (480gr) sabot slug at about 1500fps yeilding 2375ft/lbs of energy.

The big 500 S&W is in the same ballpark with the 2 3/4". If I ever go to AK, I will have a 460 or a 500 S&W with Belt Mountain "punch" bullets loaded as fast as I can drive them. For my long gun I will have a 375 H&H. I have never been there, but a professional hunter who worked in AK for many years and has now been in Africa for many years says for AK brown bear "338 is just right, 375 is just in case." He carried a 375H&H in AK and does not recommend anything less for protection work on the big bruins. He uses a 458 Lott for protection work in Africa. In most cases it seems your first shot will have to stop the bruin or turn it. If it doesn't, you probably won't get a second. He says ANY handgun is woefully underpowered for the big bears.
I believe him.

Roll Tide

PS He has killed around 100 black bears with a 44mag handgun, which he does recommend as plenty of gun for black bear. His 44 load for black bear is 240gr to 260gr JHP. I think he likes the XTP. He has used hardcast and just about every other 44 load there is, but he says the 240gr or 260gr JHP is the best by far.

 

[Marshall]

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/bushwacker.html

Standard features include: 12 or 14 inch barrel, Ghost ring sight with high visibility fiber optic front, fitted slot blank, Big Loop lever, tuned action, Bear Proof Ejector, Trigger Happy Hit, Porting, choice of Blue or Parkerized, with Pistol Grip and Shoulder Stock with pad. Choice of Take Down or non take down. Other options, calibers and barrel lengths are available. The 457 Magnum version also chambers 45/70 and 410 Shotshells.

457 Magnum Bushwacker

44 Mag version

 

[Shawn Michael]

Rolltide

Thanks for the info....That three inch slug has some wicked numbers. Thanks for the link to punch bullets. It is pretty clear to me that I need to get some reloading equiptment.

 

[Shawn Michael]

Cool stuff

more cool stuff we cant have in california!

Enjoy the thread, though the link of the half eaten man was a wakeup call from the fun and games

 

[Archer1945]

The Bushwacker is an interesting looking weapon. The only problem with using it as a bear gun is that it is a NFA Class 3 weapon, same category as full-auto weapons. This means it is not legal for private citizens in a number of states and in those where it is you will have to pay a very healthy transfer fee.

 

[carebear]

I don't think that's exactly correct, as it is "just" a SBR.

But, irrespective of that, it's legal in the states that actually have the real bears.

 

[rolltide]

I am not trying to put down the bushwacker, so don't get me wrong. I like cool looking guns as much as the next guy. What I am having trouble with is the practical side of using such a weapon. It seems too unweildy to use as a handgun. In close confines it would be far more difficult to bring to bear (no pun intended) than a handgun. It also seems capable of far less accuracy than a rifle with a much slower second shot.

I think I could fire any long gun or any handgun more accurately and more quickly.

So why exactly would I choose the bushwacker in a life threatening situation?

Again, no disrespect meant to the fine people who make the gun and the obvious skill that requires.

Roll Tide

 

[Zen21Tao]

How about a "snub nose" S&W 500?
(I have a compensated 4" S&W 500, I could only imagine firing this 2" uncompensated baby.)

Also, available in a bear survival kit:

 

[Joe Gunns]

Disclaimer: Ya know, I've never been to Alaska, never kilt a bar, tho I usta want to, but am getting soft in my old age.

BUT I read my first bear attack story in Outdoor Life when I was six, and have been a readin' fool for bear attack yarns ever since. (Okay, so some might leave the "readin'" and "bear attack yarns" parts out of that sentence. )

Anyway, FWIW Most recently I finished The Grizzly Maze which is a good recounting of the Tim Treadwell incident and discussion of the relation between big bears and people along with a chapter with a pretty decent discussion of risks, deterents and defense by a guy with Alaska outdoor and PH experience, who, BTW, also made it a point to talk to passel of bear-experienced types for their opinions.

Some observations therefrom:

When they had to kill the bruin that had been feeding on Tim and Amy (might not have been the one that killed them) it took a small fusilade of 12 ga and assorted rifle ammo to stop him.

At bear-encounter distances one shot is often all one gets: bear closing from 25 yrds or less at 25 mph leaves a reaction time in seconds. People have been killed before or just after their one shot.

12 ga slug gun w/hunting sights is favored weapon of rangers and bear-viewing guides.

Study of attacks over time shows that the incidence of bear attacks declines in proportion to size of group. Three or more folks together decrease the chances of attack dramatically, and the incidence of fatal attacks falls to zero at four or more.

Electric bear fences are very effective in keeping bears out of camp, and/or away from your tent. Consensus is that had Treadwell used his, even camped in the dangerous high-bear-traffic location he did, it is unlikely that the attack would have occurred.

Bear spray can be effective, if not used too soon so it dissipates, if not deployed when wind is crossing or blowing toward person spraying.

My humble conclusions: carry 12 ga w/heavy slugs, be with a group as much as practical, use a bear fence.

 

[Jim Z.]

Joe Gunns, I believe the picture you portray is right on the money..

Let me start out by saying that I am not just an avid outdoorsman, Its my job. I am a state ranger in one of the western states. I have been in the woods all my life. and have come into contact with wild animals many times, But not a grizzly). One of the big things is be prepared, and stay alert. Look listen and smell, and you can learn alot.

Bear or cat are what they are, deadly wild animals. Certainly not cute little cuddly furry friends. All they care about is eating, mateing, and staying alive. If you are not for screwing then you are on the menu. Carry the biggest most powerful weapon you can use fast and accurate. If you do not practice with your weapon and use it as second nature then you have no business packing in wild country. You may just piss something off, or shoot yourself or your companion in the excitement. The big thing is do not surprize a bear, BAD JUJU!

I agree that a 12 gauge pump shotgun with slugs is the best. At the very least I carry my .44 mag, 6.5 in barrel with 305 grain Corbon hunting ammo.

I saw Grizzly Man, the documentry on MR. Tredwell. It was facinating. My personal opinion is he was playing with death every day, and it was only a matter opf time. Regardless what I think the guy had bigger balls than I will ever have. He live 13 summers in bear country, unarmed and living in a nylon pup ten. NO FREAKIN WAY! When they showed the "Grizzly Maze" it just shouted bear country. 10-12' thick Alaska Alder. Fu$% ME! It made the hair on my neck stand up, before I ever know what happened there. I have been in country like that, and I was never comfortable. I have even have to crawl through bear trails on my hands an knees because the brush was so thick. I had more balls than brains.

All I'm saying hear is think before you go in bear or cougar country. One of the guys I work with was out elk hunting and came accross a Kill. Before he realized it he was between two cougars and their kill. He finaly had to shoot one because it came at him, but after he shot the first the other did not back down, it came at him also and he shot it too. Just a ordinary day of hunting is the back country.

Sorry for the long post but knowledge is power.

Best Regards and Stay Safe!

 

[Hutt]

While some of the posts I read have some merit, I do believe that when a full frontal Grizzly attack occurrs most all of you will end up as bear SH*T.

 

[North Bender]

I worked in gold exploration and on remote placer claims across Alaska, and there never was an evening passed without a conversation about what to shoot a bear with. Miners and geologists in Alaska are some of the most heavily armed men (and women) in the states. Most people I ran with carried short-barreld semi-auto shotguns with slugs.