Alliant Unique Powder

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Either I'm far more confused than I originally thought, or there's a problem.

I'm at a relative's home. He just bought a new Dillon 550, which I'll be helping him set up. Talk about the blind leading the blind....

So, after a great bar-b-que chicken dinner, I try to explain to him what you guys have been teaching me. We sort of decided he would try to start with Unique also, or at least we'd use that tonight as a starting point for our discussion, so he knows how to do the rest of the things that have to be decided or done. We would try to buy the reloading supplies tomorrow, and get his Dillon running sometime this coming week. So, next step was to find the reloading data.

  • We've started at the Unique internet page, and gone to the recipes for 38 special.
  • We've tried to start at the bullet manufacturer's page, and do the same, but didn't have much luck finding the data we wanted.
  • We've also opened the latest version of the Lyman book to the appropriate recipe pages.

I told him he shouldn't "pick some weight for the powder, he should use exactly what's listed on the manufacturer's book or website (which is what people have constantly told me). The first problem is that while starting at Unique's internet page, we can find a specified weight of powder for a particular bullet, the Lyman book gives one number for "starting", and another number for "maximum". The "maximum" number is in red, and I told him we will avoid that, and just use the "starting amount" from the Lyman book..... which sounded OK to him, until we found that the weight that was listed on the Unique page was more than even the maximum weight on the Lyman book printed page.

Silly me - I expected to find one single amount of weight, that would be posted in all the appropriate locations.

So, which of the following is the appropriate thing to do?

  • Follow the information from the Unique page, as they make the powder
  • Follow the information in the Lyman book
  • Find the bullet manufacturer's page with this kind of reloading data, if it actually exists.
  • Take an average of all of the above.
  • Call Dillon for advice
  • Check the "Reloader's Horoscope" data. :)
  • Pack everything away, and go buy some more finished bullets...
 
FYI alliant website only lists the max charge. Take 10% less for a starting charge.

Maybe that lessens the gap a bit. But expect some differences. It is not an exact science.
 
Allilant's Unique- Load data link -All cartridges

The Alliant Unique data listed is maximun. Reduce by 10% for the starting load. Compare to Lyman. Use the lowest of the two starting loads. Only load a few to test. Give bullet info for more help. Weight, brand, jacketed or lead, hollow point or ?? http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=3 Link to all loads/cartridges that use Unique. Note that 38 special also has a listing for +P loads.
 
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For the .38 Special with a 158gr LSWC bullet Alliant lists a Max charge of 4.7gr Unique which puts the starting charge @4.2gr.

Lyman 47 lists a starting charge of 3.4gr Unique and a max charge of 5.1gr Unique. In addition they list a charge of 5.4gr for a +P load.

IMO the starting charge of 4.2gr Unique under a 158gr LSWC would be a good starting charge weight and work from there...
 
I loaded a couple of hundred 158 gr LSWC over 4.7 gr of Unique this week. They shot nice, but certainly dirty.
 
Unique is awesome for .45 and will work for the other 2 calibers. It will be dirty, as mentioned before.

But the massive amounts of load data, the safety of a moderate burn rate powder that nicely fills the case, and good performance make it a no-brainer.
Unique is all I use in .45 acp.
 
For all these years, people have been telling me not to experiment, and to follow what the manufacturer's sites listed.

(I didn't really need that information, as when I was reloading, it was only .44 Special and .45 ACP, and I already had the weight information.)

So, I've been thinking, and telling people, to follow exactly what the manufacturer's sites said to do, but now that I'm trying to do that, I'm being told that I should take the "maximum" and reduce it by 10%.....

The person I'm trying to help has never reloaded. I have, but my friend back in the 1980's looked up the load weight, showed me where the numbers came from, and that's what I did for all that time. No experimentation, just "follow the numbers".

From what you guys are saying now, obviously I was wrong about this, or things have changed since the 1980's. Regardless, I'm still wrong today.


Can someone please help with the following.
a) Unique seems to be a good starting point for powder. Maybe not the best, but safe, and easy to work with.

b) Bullets to consider for now will be either full metal jacket, or wad cutters.

c) Where can I look up the proper weight of powder, for the given weight of bullet, and follow the printed information for now? Should I start with the Lyman book, the information I find starting at the Unique website, or ?????

================================================

I remember being told to specifically follow the information from the manufacturer's site, and not some unknown numbers that I found somewhere on the internet, so I'm not really asking you guys what weight of powder to use, but rather where I can find that information on one of these "manufacturer's websites", so it's "official".

Very, very frustrating. If you buy a car, the manual tells you what type of oil to use, and how much to pour into the car. If you cook a chicken, you're told how hot to make the oven, and how long to cook it. If I buy a box of FMJ .38 Special bullets, and a can of Unique powder, there was supposed to be a specified amount of powder to use, not "hey, start with the maximum that is safe, knock of 10%, and try a few that way"...

:)
 
243winxb said:
The Alliant Unique data listed is maximun. Reduce by 10% for the starting load. Compare to Lyman. Use the lowest of the two starting loads. Only load a few to test. Give bullet info for more help.
Click to expand...


Please note the last suggestion... The folks here will help you sort it out. Knowing the bullet brand, type & weight is important because published load data is specific.
As I understand it, the same type and weight bullet can be interchanged. Lyman list a lot of data for lead bullets--generally lower charge weights than FMJ. Be sure you compare apples to apples.
If a reference lists a starting charge for a specific bullet type & weight, that's always a good place to start. Load a few, try them, and see how you like them. If too weak,(or they don't cycle a semiauto), load a few more increased by 1-3 TENTHS of a grain depending on how much room you have before reaching max. charge. DO NOT LOAD THE MAX CHARGE.
If a reference lists only the max. charge, reduce by 10% to get the staring charge for that data.
I'm willing to bet you will find the charge you like in just a few tries. After that--you can just reload "by the numbers" USING THE SAME COMPONENTS. If you change components, do a new work up.
Some more experienced folks (than me) can give you more detail and answer most any reloading question here on THR. Use their knowledge--ask questions--they are glad to share and help.
The load data you find in multiple references can be confusing and look like it conflicts. Ask if it doesn't seem clear.

BTW I like Unique a lot and have used it in 45acp, 9mm & 380acp. I found good shooting loads in the mid range of charges, but it IS dirty. I currently use Red Dot (cleaner, shoots just as well) but would not hesitate to use Unique.
 
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I told him he shouldn't "pick some weight for the powder, he should use exactly what's listed on the manufacturer's book or website (which is what people have constantly told me).
Click to expand...
. I'll probably get a bunch of grief for this, but.....

Loading is not an exact science. If you go to three sources, you'll get three answers. Too many variations of bullet construction, primer brand, case capacity. Just changing brand of primer on a shotgun load can change pressure 50%

If you go with any of the three, you'll very likely be good to go. At first it's contradictory and confusing. After a while, you'll figure out an acceptable range. Try and pick something in the middle and go with it.

Guys run in circles screaming like school girls if you're off by 1/10th a grain. If you pulled factory rounds, you'll figure out that they are off by a LOT more than that. Guys that blow up their guns typically do really stupid stuff. Really stupid or careless.

As for Unique, I like the comment about "flaming dirt". I gave away almost a full pound of the new and improved stuff. What crap. Godawful dirty. I use something like AA#5, and prefer Universal Clays when I can find it. WW-231/HP-38 are good alternatives. In the end, I don't know that there's really a lot of difference as long as they are ball or small flake and meter well, and are the same burn rate
 
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drband said:
........Knowing the bullet brand, type & weight is important because published load data is specific. .........
Click to expand...


In case I'm maybe doing something wrong, or have just been searching in all the wrong places, can you please give me any example of "specific published load data"?

Trial and error, and working up to a good load is great, but right now, we just want to get his Dillon press set up and working. I haven't yet been able to find any specific load data; everything I've found is very non specific.
 
And it will be for the most part. They give you a safe working range with a certain powder for a certain weight of a certain type bullet. That is all you need. They cannot produce data for every single combination known to man.

If you want bullet specific data, buy the bullet makers manual for that specific bullet. That leaves out a lot of things you can use though.

I really don't understand how you are more confused now, as in my opinion posters have been giving you some very patient and excellent advise in your various threads.
 
38 special 158gr lead swc .

ArchAngelCD
For the .38 Special with a 158gr LSWC bullet Alliant lists a Max charge of 4.7gr Unique which puts the starting charge @4.2gr.

Lyman 47 lists a starting charge of 3.4gr Unique and a max charge of 5.1gr Unique. In addition they list a charge of 5.4gr for a +P load.

IMO the starting charge of 4.2gr Unique under a 158gr LSWC would be a good starting charge weight and work from there...
Click to expand...
Here the 4.7gr would be my load. The reason being that the +P loading maximum is 5.2 gr of Unique. I load/use this loading with cast bullets. specific load data > http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=3 Note- Speer soft swaged bullets would do better at 4.7 maximum. A cast bullet will work fine at 5.2grs. More confusion for you Mike. :D Swaged/soft vs Cast/Hard.
 
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'243winxb', maybe I just need new glasses, or a new way to think about this. Using your quoted example:

For the .38 Special with a 158gr LSWC bullet Alliant lists a Max charge of 4.7gr Unique which puts the starting charge @4.2gr.

Lyman 47 lists a starting charge of 3.4gr Unique and a max charge of 5.1gr Unique. In addition they list a charge of 5.4gr for a +P load.

IMO the starting charge of 4.2gr Unique under a 158gr LSWC would be a good starting charge weight and work from there...​


You are saying 4.7 would be your load. But 4.7 is the maximum load, as listed by Alliant. Lyman is listing a starting charge of 3.4grm

For just starting out, for a 38 Special load, with the bullet given in the example, why would you select 4.7 rather than 3.4 ?? THAT is where I am still confused. I would have expected to be told to start out with the recommended starting load, 3.4.....
 
Just remember to start low and work up, make sure a hole appears in the target before firing the next round and you'll be fine. I would take it extra slow though if you're firing up a Dillon without a whole lot of experience.
 
Yep, firing up a brand new Dillon, still in the plastic wrapping. Unless there is a good reason to do otherwise, we will see what kind of powder to buy (right now it's Unique, HP-38, or Win231) and start with the specified "starting number" from the powder manufacturer's book or website. If it's Unique, that will be 3.4gr.

If the bullet rolls out of the barrel, and goes 'flop' onto the ground in front of us, will reconsider. :) .....or, as Potatohead wrote, will make sure there is a hole in the target.
 
For just starting out, for a 38 Special load, with the bullet given in the example, why would you select 4.7 rather than 3.4 ?? THAT is where I am still confused. I would have expected to be told to start out with the recommended starting load, 3.4..
Click to expand...
That probably about where I'd start too. Remember that bullet seating depth can have as much effect on pressure as changes in powder charge.

At 3.4 grains of Unique, you'll think you loaded black powder when you pull the trigger. Get ready for some scrubbing, particularly if it's a stainless gun. Unique will burn cleaner if you push it harder, i.e, closer to max pressure

When somebody said to only loads few rounds and try them, that was good advice.
 
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Unique has been all I've used so far. I was worried because I couldn't find any and am about to run out. I picked up some titegroup and some HP-38 to try, but surprisingly I found some Unique last night and picked up a pound. I'm a relatively low volume reloader, so I'm set for a while. I've used the Unique in 40 S&W and 45 ACP and have been happy. Yes, it is a little dirty, but nothing a quick wipe with a cloth doesn't correct.
 
mikemyers, maybe this will help "ease" your concerns and confusion.

The published load data you read are based on chamber pressure testing where "barrel fixtures" are often used instead of actual pistols. The differences you see in the load data come from different test barrel lengths used, groove diameter, bullet type, seating depth, primers used etc.

Different reloading variables will require different amount of powder charges to produce the same amount of chamber pressure. Saying "I use X grain of powder charge for X grain bullet weight" may work fine in THAT pistol but may not work in another pistol if it has different barrel length, groove diameter, etc.

The lower powder charges you see in Lyman load data simply means that are the powder charges that produced the measured chamber pressures for that particular test barrel using the variables listed in the load data. Will that lower powder charge work with your pistol? Maybe and maybe not.

That's why most reloaders will often use the lowest published start charge to conduct their powder work up, especially if they are using different bullet and seating depth/OAL/COL than published.

Different advices you got from various members could be true for THEIR pistols and bullets/seating depth/OAL/COL used. To find out what works best for your pistol, you simply need to conduct your own powder work up and see which load works well.
 
Thanks for all the advice. Everything is now "clear as mud", but I think I have a reasonably starting point - as someone I met today put it, take the minimum reading and the maximum, and start out with the average of the two. To me, it sounds reasonable, safe, and sort of fits in with all the above advice.

Went to a gun show today near Fellsmere. One person had quite a bit of Unique for sale, so I now have a pound.

I also got a box of CCI small pistol primers and large pistol primers.

For my relative, next step is to assemble and adjust his new Dillon 550.

For me, I'll be home a week from now, and all I still need to buy is bullets. Assuming FMJ is available, that's what I'll use in all three calibers. It's only for shooting targets, at 15 yards, so which bullet I select probably isn't all that critical. If I'm wrong, and if the Unique powder works "better" with certain types of bullets, I'll try to get those.

Everything is moving along - just a few bumps in the road, but it's all happening..... :)
 
BUT, I really wouldn't start as low as 3.4gr Unique. I would go with the current data from Alliant rather than the older data from Lyman. I would start with 4.2gr Unique which is the starting charge weight recommended by Alliant.

I am at a loss as to why a brand new reloader would want to learn about reloading using a progressive press without first understanding how the reloading process works.
 
All powders have a range of load for a particular size/weight.
Any powders recipes that only show one weight are showing the maximum wight for the load. Normally, reduce by 10% to start. I don't know of any exceptions to this.

For me, if a recipe shows (IE) .40 cal 165 gn bullet, pwder "X" has a load range of 5.2 to 6.1 gns. I most often start at 5.4 or 5.5 gn and see how it runs. Depending on the result and what I want to achieve, I may bump it up (usually) or lower it a pinch.

mikemyers said:
Either I'm far more confused than I originally thought, or there's a problem.

I'm at a relative's home. He just bought a new Dillon 550, which I'll be helping him set up. Talk about the blind leading the blind....

So, after a great bar-b-que chicken dinner, I try to explain to him what you guys have been teaching me. We sort of decided he would try to start with Unique also, or at least we'd use that tonight as a starting point for our discussion, so he knows how to do the rest of the things that have to be decided or done. We would try to buy the reloading supplies tomorrow, and get his Dillon running sometime this coming week. So, next step was to find the reloading data.

  • We've started at the Unique internet page, and gone to the recipes for 38 special.
  • We've tried to start at the bullet manufacturer's page, and do the same, but didn't have much luck finding the data we wanted.
  • We've also opened the latest version of the Lyman book to the appropriate recipe pages.

I told him he shouldn't "pick some weight for the powder, he should use exactly what's listed on the manufacturer's book or website (which is what people have constantly told me). The first problem is that while starting at Unique's internet page, we can find a specified weight of powder for a particular bullet, the Lyman book gives one number for "starting", and another number for "maximum". The "maximum" number is in red, and I told him we will avoid that, and just use the "starting amount" from the Lyman book..... which sounded OK to him, until we found that the weight that was listed on the Unique page was more than even the maximum weight on the Lyman book printed page.

Silly me - I expected to find one single amount of weight, that would be posted in all the appropriate locations.

So, which of the following is the appropriate thing to do?

  • Follow the information from the Unique page, as they make the powder
  • Follow the information in the Lyman book
  • Find the bullet manufacturer's page with this kind of reloading data, if it actually exists.
  • Take an average of all of the above.
  • Call Dillon for advice
  • Check the "Reloader's Horoscope" data. :)
  • Pack everything away, and go buy some more finished bullets...
Click to expand...
 
Ex said:
Normally, reduce by 10% to start. I don't know of any exceptions to this.
Click to expand...
One exception is used by bullseye match shooters. Often with powders faster burning than W231/HP-38, powder work up (or rather work down) is "downloaded" from 10% below max charge until slide won't even cycle reliably and require lighter recoil springs.

Another exception is for training purposes. When I introduce new shooters to snappy recoiling 40S&W, I will often start out with below published start charge W231/HP-38 load which has less felt recoil than 9mm loads. This allows the shooters to focus more on target/shooting technique instead of flinching. As they become more comfortable, I use higher charge loads and work up to factory pressures.

Another exception is match shooting 40S&W with minor power factor loads. With 155-180 gr bullets, it is possible to load below published start charges and still meet the 125 power factor requirements - http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_40lite_091806/
 
Just a quick note. I am at my relative's home for this week. We are assembling the Dillon, just started today. I'm not sure what we'll get done, and when, but he does have a person nearby with the same Dillon, also reloading for 38 Special, so I'm confident that will all work out.

Back to me. My 45 ACP is still away at Colt, so I don't know how soon I'll be reloading for it. In the meantime, I can either do my '44 Special loads again for the gun I used to shoot the most, or start with 38 Special. I need to buy bullets for both, and after all the above discussion, I'm pretty sure I'll be up and running in under two weeks. By then I should have everything else I need, including the case cleaner.

Maybe all the above discussion will help out others who want to get involved in reloading, and who still need to learn the things we've been talking about here.

...........and if I haven't already said it enough here, THANK YOU to all of you!!!
 
ArchAngelCD said:
.......I am at a loss as to why a brand new reloader would want to learn about reloading using a progressive press without first understanding how the reloading process works......
Click to expand...



In my case, I want to learn all about reloading, meaning all the "behind the scenes" details. If I wanted to buy a toaster, I probably wouldn't want all that information - I might just want to turn out slices of toast.......
 
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