While this is off-topic from ‘gun shops in Europe'
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=474260
I find it extremely important to address what you say and as such have opened a new thread so the other doesn’t get locked down by admin.
Allserene,
I believe you have completely missed my point.
By ‘attitude’ I mean your perception on how things should be done (i.e. steel cabinet & 1 hour of basic firearms safety – these are UK requirements). You believe these are a necessary good and will prevent misfortunes/accidents with firearms…essentially you want to bring across the water what happens to be a legal requirement in the UK at present. I firmly disagree and let me explain why.
I grew up in the Republic of Ireland and my 1st experience with a firearm was my grandfather taking down his .22lr rifle from over the stove in the kitchen…and unlocking the ammunition from a drawer in the kitchen along with finding the bolt. Time passes and more and more regulations come into effect in the ROI until it is similar to the UK system now. I eventually move to Luxembourg and here I can buy whatever I want, any handgun regardless of size or caliber and the same for a rifle, a barrett in semi-auto in .50 is possible here if you have the funds and a silencer to put on it if I wanted. I can even buy a fully functional MG42 on a collectors’ license. Then imagine my surprise (“shock” more than anything) in being told by the police I didn’t need a gun cabinet to store any firearms and there was no safety course involved in owning firearms. I thought this country is absolutely CRAZY.
I thought like this because I had become so used to the Irish system/(same as UK) and how punitive/restrictive it had become. It trains your mind to think in a certain manner i.e. you own guns you NEED a firearms cabinet period. You own guns you NEED safety training.
But you know what, people with children here don’t need to be told (or made to by government) to buy a gun cabinet….they buy it of their own accord. People with lots of guns buy cabinets to safeguard their investment. People here don’t require 1 hour of basic safety training and to date I have yet to hear of an accident at a gun club….why? Because others take the time to explain to new members the rules of firearms safety (as any gun club does) and will politely inform other shooters if anything they do is breaking the rules. We politely govern ourselves without government. There is no need for 1 hour of safety training.
I still find this ironic given you did the same thing with an AR-15(especially with 14 years as an officer in a club in the UK)…
You should have taken the responsibility of knowing how the firearm functions before trying to shoot it…not the government, YOU. You scared yourself and as such want to have this 1 hour of training to prevent others doing what you did. I’m in my early 30s and I find it so hard to believe this ‘cotton wool’ approach of protecting the public from themselves and the public willingly abdicating their own personal responsibility to the higher authority that is government. It just defies common sense. The generations before us never had it nor needed it and they were men who directly assumed personal responsibility without the coddling that is so rampant in the society of today. This is ironic, you are in retirement and I’m in my 30s…it should be the other way around.
One point, you cannot legislate against stupidity. Again, you “cannot legislate against stupidity”.
1. youtube certainly isn’t representative of firearms owners and again and more importantly
2. you “cannot legislate against stupidity” – even with a 1 hour course, they would have done the same thing with their 7 year old because they are jackasses. The same guys give a .50 deagle to their skinny wife to shoot – they’re the extreme minority. Again, they will behave like this regardless of the 1 hour of training they received so many moons ago when they first bought a firearm. You cannot legislate against stupidity.
You want to give & take/compromise on certain issues; it’s repeatedly stated by you in your posts.
You fail to understand that in trying to negotiate one thing for another is a losing battle because the anti side will repeatedly come back to the table until the only thing left to give up is the BIG issues. The agenda of the antis is no firearms – that is the end game. Take a read of www.iansa.org and their objectives.
The point is, and it is blatantly evident time and time again in Europe that once you negotiate for rights and give up others in return you are losing this continuous battle for the right of firearm ownership. MJDECKARD has made this point perfectly.
The only way to fight for rights is to turn non-shooters into shooters.
No it isn’t a losing strategy – the Washington ban was overturned like this – the NRA didn’t compromise on aspects of rifle ownership for others to obtain handguns.
I have a really hard time finding the logic in the comparison above.
A car needs a license to drive, a doctor needs a medical certificate to practice….and as such a gun owner needs a 'safety license' to use a firearm….I completely disagree.
you are still thinking like an Englishman living under the UK system - embrace the freedom of choice that the U.S. offers and remove the conditioning that the UK system has imprinted in your mind.
I had to do the same thing. I lived under a liberal system with my grandfather until it became a draconian system akin to that of the UK....to complete freedom again with firearms laws here in Luxembourg.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=474260
I find it extremely important to address what you say and as such have opened a new thread so the other doesn’t get locked down by admin.
Allserene,
I believe you have completely missed my point.
By ‘attitude’ I mean your perception on how things should be done (i.e. steel cabinet & 1 hour of basic firearms safety – these are UK requirements). You believe these are a necessary good and will prevent misfortunes/accidents with firearms…essentially you want to bring across the water what happens to be a legal requirement in the UK at present. I firmly disagree and let me explain why.
I grew up in the Republic of Ireland and my 1st experience with a firearm was my grandfather taking down his .22lr rifle from over the stove in the kitchen…and unlocking the ammunition from a drawer in the kitchen along with finding the bolt. Time passes and more and more regulations come into effect in the ROI until it is similar to the UK system now. I eventually move to Luxembourg and here I can buy whatever I want, any handgun regardless of size or caliber and the same for a rifle, a barrett in semi-auto in .50 is possible here if you have the funds and a silencer to put on it if I wanted. I can even buy a fully functional MG42 on a collectors’ license. Then imagine my surprise (“shock” more than anything) in being told by the police I didn’t need a gun cabinet to store any firearms and there was no safety course involved in owning firearms. I thought this country is absolutely CRAZY.
I thought like this because I had become so used to the Irish system/(same as UK) and how punitive/restrictive it had become. It trains your mind to think in a certain manner i.e. you own guns you NEED a firearms cabinet period. You own guns you NEED safety training.
But you know what, people with children here don’t need to be told (or made to by government) to buy a gun cabinet….they buy it of their own accord. People with lots of guns buy cabinets to safeguard their investment. People here don’t require 1 hour of basic safety training and to date I have yet to hear of an accident at a gun club….why? Because others take the time to explain to new members the rules of firearms safety (as any gun club does) and will politely inform other shooters if anything they do is breaking the rules. We politely govern ourselves without government. There is no need for 1 hour of safety training.
Actually I would like other shooters to have had at least basic training if they are going to stand 6 feet away from me with an AK47 - an hour's training is plenty.
I still find this ironic given you did the same thing with an AR-15(especially with 14 years as an officer in a club in the UK)…
You should have taken the responsibility of knowing how the firearm functions before trying to shoot it…not the government, YOU. You scared yourself and as such want to have this 1 hour of training to prevent others doing what you did. I’m in my early 30s and I find it so hard to believe this ‘cotton wool’ approach of protecting the public from themselves and the public willingly abdicating their own personal responsibility to the higher authority that is government. It just defies common sense. The generations before us never had it nor needed it and they were men who directly assumed personal responsibility without the coddling that is so rampant in the society of today. This is ironic, you are in retirement and I’m in my 30s…it should be the other way around.
Even Cheney shot his buddy by accident.
One point, you cannot legislate against stupidity. Again, you “cannot legislate against stupidity”.
A look at some of the stuff on youtube where they give a 7 year old a fully automatic large bore weapon and it spins him round in circles and everyone ducks
1. youtube certainly isn’t representative of firearms owners and again and more importantly
2. you “cannot legislate against stupidity” – even with a 1 hour course, they would have done the same thing with their 7 year old because they are jackasses. The same guys give a .50 deagle to their skinny wife to shoot – they’re the extreme minority. Again, they will behave like this regardless of the 1 hour of training they received so many moons ago when they first bought a firearm. You cannot legislate against stupidity.
You want to give & take/compromise on certain issues; it’s repeatedly stated by you in your posts.
1. I think many gun owners would agree to 'give and take' as long as the government had lots of 'give' and not much 'take'
2. I reckon American gun owners would benefit from coming off the defensive and asking for 'liberalisation' of gun ownership across the States in exchange for some small responsible concessions (which would benefit gun owners actually), and keep the non owners on side at the same time.
3. really makes me twitchy about safety so I would let the politicians make rules for that in exchange for.....
4. making a big deal about some pretty easy concessions on our side would reduce the opposition and enhance our chances of holding the line on the big stuff
You fail to understand that in trying to negotiate one thing for another is a losing battle because the anti side will repeatedly come back to the table until the only thing left to give up is the BIG issues. The agenda of the antis is no firearms – that is the end game. Take a read of www.iansa.org and their objectives.
The point is, and it is blatantly evident time and time again in Europe that once you negotiate for rights and give up others in return you are losing this continuous battle for the right of firearm ownership. MJDECKARD has made this point perfectly.
The only way to fight for rights is to turn non-shooters into shooters.
Of course it would be nice to just dig in and say 'from my cold fingers ' etc, but if we have no trench and no weapons, it's a losing strategy in the long run and we need smarter strategies to achieve our purpose.
No it isn’t a losing strategy – the Washington ban was overturned like this – the NRA didn’t compromise on aspects of rifle ownership for others to obtain handguns.
But we agree with driver tests before they get a license, and exams for doctors, and so as long as we have eternal vigilance on basic safety training ( 1 hour or so), not being used as a 'discouragement' tool, then I think that would benefit all shooters who have to stand next to new shooters, and the new shooters themselves - and we could 'swap' it for a concession on some law we don't like.
I have a really hard time finding the logic in the comparison above.
A car needs a license to drive, a doctor needs a medical certificate to practice….and as such a gun owner needs a 'safety license' to use a firearm….I completely disagree.
you are still thinking like an Englishman living under the UK system - embrace the freedom of choice that the U.S. offers and remove the conditioning that the UK system has imprinted in your mind.
I had to do the same thing. I lived under a liberal system with my grandfather until it became a draconian system akin to that of the UK....to complete freedom again with firearms laws here in Luxembourg.
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