Aluminum frame Walther P-38/P-1

[SouthpawShootr]

Been looking at a Walther P-38. Looks either refurbed or unissued. I feel like I might be getting the bug here. It's one of the recent imports with an aluminum frame. I've been reading that the aluminum frame had a cracking problem that was reinforced by use of a hexagonal bolt through the frame and that it should be visible in guns so modified. Anybody have pictures of this bolt. Maybe vs a gun without the bolt so that I can quickly identify which is which? Does the gun need to be field stripped to reveal this bolt?

 

[RecoilRob]

The bolt in question is plainly visible on both sides of the weapon without disassembly.

It is directly beneath the 4/78 build date on this late model P-1.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

Super. Exactly what I needed to see. Comparing pictures of WWII and post-war P-38s, I suspected that was what I was looking for, but nobody had pointed it out. Thanks.

 

[StrikeEagle]

I've been reading that the aluminum frame had a cracking problem that was reinforced by use of a hexagonal bolt through the frame and that it should be visible in guns so modified.

This is evil news to me. I have one of these aluminum frame P-38's. Mine is clean, clean... "minto crispo" as they say, and perhaps unfired. No crossbolt. I got it more as an artifact and collectable than as a shooter, and I doubt that I've put 50 rounds though it in 20 years.

But I always thought I COULD use it as a range piece with no problems. Not so? Please tell me the extent and nature of this cracking problem?

Many thanks!
StrikeEagle

 

[New_geezer]

Actually, I've rarely heard of frames cracking tho there's a more common problem with the early model slides cracking. Most problems with these guns come from trying to shoot high powered ammo thru them. Don't - ordinary Winchester White Box 9mm, 115 gr ammo is just about perfect for these guns. My P-1 will shoot it all day long (issue date 5/82). The P-1's made after about 1974 (with the hex bolt) are the best shooters mainly because they usually incorporate all the minor design and part improvements made over the years. But many shoot the earlier models models as well, just stick with the standard ammo. If you are going to shoot your P-1 regularly, most recommend replacing the recoil guide springs first (standard spring strength). I also replaced my magazine springs which fixed a feed problem that cropped up. You can get both at www.gunsprings.com

An area to avoid is removing the slide cover. It can be tricky to get it reseated properly, and if you don't, it can fly off when shooting and throw small parts in all directions. This is not something to worry about if you've never taken the slide cover off.

Highly recommend a vist to www.p38forum.com

Browse thru the new forum and the old archives and you'll probably find an answer to anything you can think to ask. In the gallery, you can find pictures that will explain all the various marking on the gun.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

This is the sort of thing I'm afraid of and the reason I asked:

http://forums.p38forum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7017

 

[New_geezer]

I did say "rarely" - refer to these posts

http://forums.p38forum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3161&highlight=cracked+frame


http://forums.p38forum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6969&highlight=cracked+frame

Further review thru the forum will show there is generally more concern about the early slides cracking than the frames. Not that there are a rampant number of cracked slides. The concern is legitimate but you'll find many more posts where people have used their P-1s extensively, as opposed to experiencing cracked frames or even cracked slides. Especially if you're talking about a gun that when purchased had been rarely, if ever fired.

Note the comment in one of the above posts that the hex-bolt was not installed to prevent the frame from cracking but to reduce wear (read rounding or peening) at a key point. When you disassemble the P-1, you'll see that the hex bolt comes into play with the locking bolt when the slide is returned to battery by the recoil springs and not when the locking bolt strikes the frame from the more violent blow-back forces of the fired round. But if you have a P-1 with the hex-bolt you likely also have all the various improved parts that were added to the gun over the years it was produced

The P1s were used by the German police and were intended for high volume use. Consider too that it's unlikely the police would use for 40 years, a design prone to the frame cracking. Read thru the threads on this THR forum and there are examples of failures with just about every gun ever made. But exceptions don't mean that's the rule. Given that tho, if you're buying a used pistol there is little chance you'll know exactly how a pistol is used. And without accusing anyone of anything - people get advised not to use P+ ammo, do anyway, have problems, but don't want to admit they ignored good advice, and plead woe is me.

Realize that any P-1 you buy at this point is going to be 15 - 50 years old. Replacing your recoil springs may not be necessary but honestly it's cheap insurance to help protect your investment. I have shot about 1500 rounds thru my P-1 and have no qualms about putting another 1500 rounds thru it. (and my gun was an issued weapon with two armory checkup marks on it). It is a fun plinker - would I use it for CC or home defense - not likely because of the ammo limitations - I haven't had good luck shooting anything but ball ammo with it. Also, although mine's fairly accurate it's a military weapon and not super accurate. But I definitely enjoy taking it out and blasing miscellaneous fun targets.

 

[rudolf]

The P1 was the German Army handgun until recently, Now it's the H&K USP.
Most German Police agencies used other handguns.

 

[CWatson]

I have a early model without the cross frame hex. I have several thousands of rounds through it,in fact it is my second most shot handgun right behind my Glock 19. No signs of wear or cracking.



CW

 

[StrikeEagle]

CWatson

I have a early model without the cross frame hex. I have several thousands of rounds through it,in fact it is my second most shot handgun right behind my Glock 19. No signs of wear or cracking.

What kinds of ammo have you been putting through the gun? Just normal pressure stuff? Any NATO fodder or hotter subgun rounds?

StrikeEagle

 

[alamo]

I have a 1960 P-1 without the hex bolt. If you use standard pressure ammo in them, they will be fine. Some folks will give you the impression that P-1s without the hex bolt will explode in your hand if you dare shoot them. Don't listen to them.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

Some folks will give you the impression that P-1s without the hex bolt will explode in your hand if you dare shoot them.

Well, not quite that bad, but people do imply that they won't last very long.

I went back and looked at the gun again. It doesn't have the crossbolt, but you guys are beginning to sway me. Keep going. I never run pedal to the metal 9mm out of anything. Most of what I run is 115 gr. WWB. Only thing that gets hot stuff is my G19 & Kahr PM9.

 

[New_geezer]

Go for it. It's a cheap piece of history. The P-1/P38 is a classic design and you can see its influence on many modern pistols (Berretta 92s come to mind). It's one of those "neat" guns that are worth owning even if you never put more than 100 rounds thru it. (but it is so smooth you'll like shooting it)

Just some FYI you might look for - matching serial numbers. The frame will have the full serial number, the slide, locking bolt and barrel will usually have the last three of the serial number. The magazines also have serial numbers but it's unlikely they'll match but they will show the year of manufacture. Finally the slide may have a date on the left side (gun pointing forward), for example mine says 5/82. That is the date of acceptance into service and is only a general guide as to date of manufacture. If there is no date then it's likely the gun was never issued.

 

[alamo]

Go for it. It's a cheap piece of history. The P-1/P38 is a classic design and you can see its influence on many modern pistols (Berretta 92s come to mind). It's one of those "neat" guns that are worth owning even if you never put more than 100 rounds thru it. (but it is so smooth you'll like shooting it)

That's why I got one. Mine came from SOG a few years ago. I like to completely disassemble newly acquired milsurps down to about every last part and give them a good cleaning and make sure there's no unseen rust eating away somewhere.

It's fun to do and helps you learn about the pistol. Reinstalling the top cover on a P-1 was extremely difficult. Might be easier the 2nd time but I'll never do it again. Just once to clean and make sure there was no rust.

I also spent some time on the P-38 Forum and read up on the hex bolt issue and noted what the experts there said. I came away convinced that it shouldn't be an issue if you stick to standard pressure ammo.

I like the way these pistols feel and point, very natural.

 

[StrikeEagle]

Go for it. It's a cheap piece of history.

That's also why I got mine. And it was sooooooo clean. Really didn't appear to have been fired at all. And the price was right.

Plus, in a worst-case scenario, it's still a very respectable weapon.

StrikeEagle

 

[e3mrk]

The Alloy Frame just could not stand up to the shock of firing a heavy grain Bullet,After a while they would crack.The solution was to install the Steel Cross Pin to help absorb the shock of the impact of the Slide Stop Block against the Frame.
You can try a stronger set of recoil Springs From Wolf,They will help.
I changed the Alloy Frame from My P-1 to a Steel Frame from WW-2 and it functions perfectly as the frames are identical.
Below is a picture of a Frame that cracked, Notice there is no Pin.




The Picture below is My P-1 With a Steel WW-2 frame,They are identical.

 

[dfariswheel]

The fact is, the steel reinforcement pin was NOT to prevent frame cracks, it was to give the locking block a steel "wear surface".

Walther's that were heavily shot tended to wear the soft aluminum ramp in the frame that operates the locking block.
When the ramp wore enough, the gun would start to have locking problems.

The steel pin was installed to give the steel locking block a longer wearing steel surface.
THAT'S why the pin is hexagonal in shape.

There are a number of reasons aluminum P-38/P1 pistols will crack frames or slides. Some of the most common:
1. Shooting hot ammo or heavy bullet loads.
These guns were designed for use with standard load 125 grain bullet ammo.
Shooting hot ammo or bullets over 125 grains can cause cracks.

2. Using "extra-power" recoil springs.
While extra-strong recoil springs may "pad" the frame from hot ammo, people fail to understand that the slide ALSO slams SHUT with greater force.
It's that extra-hard slide closing that literally hammers the frame forward and cracks it.

A look at the posted broken frame shows that the frame was hammered FORWARD not rearward.

 

[Onmilo]

The hexagonal reenforcing pin is located to the right of the takedown lever.
While it may, or may not, prevent frame cracking, I consider the later production guns better in overall quality.
The slides are 1 millimeter thicker to prevent cracking at the locking block slots.
The slide top cover is improved to prevent it from flying off the gun in use and the rear sight is more tightly fitted.
The springs seem better made and the trigger pulls are lighter in most guns.
These are reasons enough to choose a reenforce frame gun over a non reenforced aluminum frame P1.

 

[PX15]

FWIW:

Here's a photo of my surplus P5 & surplus P1.

My P1 came surplus but "as new" with the "fat slide conversion" & frame hex bolt.

I have never had any trouble with either of the Walthers, and I think many people consider the P5, which is basically the last generation of improved P38/P1's as one of the best 9mm pistols ever manufactured.

If I were in the market for another P1 I would definitely look for one with the fat slide conversion (heavier slide), and frame hex bolt. No matter which variety of P1 I got I simply would not be shooting +p's in it anyway. I think the bulked up P1's will accept a reasonable amount of +p's, (for self defense), but it's just silly to expect a pistol that is probably 60+ years old to appreciate a steady diet of +p's.

My recommendation is if you want a P1 to plink with and enjoy you will be very happy. I wouldn't consider buying a surplus P1 for a daily self defense weapon, simply because there are better, modern, choices available..

I like P1's.. Neat pistols with a great heritage.

Just opinion/YMMV

JP