Aluminum framed EAA Witness .45????
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hemiram
Member
I've seen a lot of Tanfoglio guns, and I've never seen a non steel or polymer gun with their name on it. I would really like to see it.
You asked for opinions so here is mine. I do not like alloy or aluminum framed guns. I like steel sliding on steel in an auto loader even if it is only inserts set in a polymer base.
I have suffered a Sig alloy frame crack and that was enough for me. The only Sig I own now is the Sig Pro 2022 with steel inserts in the poly frame and I am issued a Glock service sidearm.
I have suffered a Sig alloy frame crack and that was enough for me. The only Sig I own now is the Sig Pro 2022 with steel inserts in the poly frame and I am issued a Glock service sidearm.
The Bushmaster
Member
Maybe...But...I carry a Kimber UCC II with an aluminum alloy frame. Have ran hundreds of .45 ACP+P rounds through it in the past 4 (+/- a few) years. Have suffered no problems with the aluminum alloy frame.
I, too, prefer all steel handguns, but....
I, too, prefer all steel handguns, but....
That would stand to reason. The .45 ACP is a very low pressure round. I have seen a great many things that a .45 ACP round could not penetrate including a folded woolen blanket. A 9x19, 9x17 and a .40 SW rounds of likewise configuration penetrated the same folded blanket with ease. One can conclude that less force creates less stress on the mass. Simple physics in my opinion.
The Bushmaster
Member
I have some Navy woolen blankets here. How (agent109) many times do I have to fold one??
Walt Sherrill
Member
agtman said:
You didn't say "some pre-owned Tanfoglio are presumptively suspect," above. The implication of that CLARIFYING statement seems to be that "EVERY pre-owned Tanfoglio is presumptively suspect."
Not everyone has had bad experiences with used Tanfoglio-made guns. Ask me how I know. I've had at least 6 Tanfoglio guns, (and a couple of extra top-ends/slides) and they've all been as good (i.e., trouble-free and reliable) as guns from other makers.
Ask others here, as well.
Buying used guns of any variety can be a crap shoot -- especially if you're inexperienced, don't know what to check, and you can't try them out before you buy.
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Different topic: I've owned, seen, shot, and otherwise examined a lot of Tanfoglo guns over the years, and don't remember EVER seeing one with an aluminum frame. Some LOOKED like aluminum, but didn't FEEL like that lighter metal. They may be out there, but they've eluded me.
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Walt, buddy, pay attention: there's no need to clarify what isn't ambiguous.
The quite clear statement, "Pre-owned Tanfoglios are presumptively suspect," obviously applies to all used Tanfoglio pistols. There's no need to add the limiting modifier "some." The key word is "presumptively." IOW, any used Tanfoglio pistol is presumed suspect until proven otherwise. Some models may run fine and therefore rebut the presumption, but others don't.
You can dispute it all you like, but Tanfoglio pistols have developed a spotty track record that anyone can research by pressing their Google button. I've owned them and have personal seen problems with Tanfoglio pistols belonging to others on the range.
Your experience merely indicates you've been luckier. Glad to hear it.
Good advice, but at least at two of the LGS around here, they'll permit you to do some limited test-firing with factory ammo of a "pre-owned" handgun in which your interested (which the LGS's gunsmith has first vetted for safety and function).
Regardless, and as you're well aware, there have been many past posts on THR and other boards reporting both cracked slides and frames on Tanfoglio pistols, sights that fly off, et al., not to mention the less than stellar "customer service" that ensues when you have to return the pistol to EAA for warranty work (For the OP: EAA is just the importer, not the maker).
So, yes, the "presumptively-suspect" warning applies to the OP's prospective purchase here ... Buyer beware
Walt Sherrill
Member
Yes, many posts, often by the same guys. Or posts quoting those experiences but not by people who actually own Tanfoglio or Witness guns. Most of the post had to do with 10mm guns, a relative few with .45s. Most complained of their horrible experiences with EAA customer service, and being treated terribly when the problems were escalated to a higher management level.
The problem with cracked slides is something I mentioned in an earlier post is this discussion. That problem (which was apparently a design flaw) was resolved several years ago when Tanfoglio redesigned the slide. I haven't heard a thing about cracked slides on guns sold since the slide redesign. Have you? More importantly, I don't think I've ever heard of problems with the smaller framed guns -- and there's probably MORE of them out there than the large-framed guns. I think I've only read ONE discussion of cracked frames -- so it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. I read a lot of forum posts.
An important point: the 10mm and .45 guns that failed with cracked slides were NOT USED GUNS, but guns that failed soon after purchase. These guns didn't end up sold to a gun shop. Most of them, if comments by the owners are any indication, were not repaired. EAA claimed they failed because of hot ammo and wouldn't repair them at EAA expense. Most of the owners were so disgusted with EAA they didn't want to pay more money to get the guns right. They were just out of pocket.
That seemed to be a world-class cop out by EAA. One senior executive at EAA (apparently a member of the owning family) consistently acted like a jerk. I've heard that he's no longer involved with customer service. If true, that alone is a step in the right direction. At one time EAA's customer service -- if it involved a warranty issue due to a major component failure -- was horrible. Have you heard any NEW horror stories? I've heard some positive stories, recently.
A poll here, with only actual owners of Tanfoglio and Witness weapons responding -- would offer some meaningful evidence; while not verifiable, it would be better than "facts" based on hearsay. So many of the horror stories about Tanfoglio/Witness failures seem to be like the horror stories you hear about Hi-Point pistols -- seldom based on personal experience but upon things read on the web. It is apparently fun to pile on.
You've had bad experiences. Apparently with used guns. What were the problems? Were there cracked slides or frames? How many guns? If they were used guns you didn't have a warranty. EAA isn't Ruger.
Not everyone who has owned Tanfoglio-made guns (or just Witness-labled guns) has had YOUR bad experience.
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I think the price is to high. The new never fired models go for about $450-500 in this neck of the woods. GB has them for about the same. As far reliability I have a little Windicator revolver that has been pretty good. Owned it about a year with no problems. A friend bought a Witness model a while back and said he liked it better than his Glock. I shot it once and had no problems with it.
Apparently you haven't read that many. But don't take it from me ... you and the OP can do your own goggle-fu research. Just type in the right search terms and hit the button.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=404347
There's more than one "cracked frame" complaint out there, Walt; otherwise all the OP is left with is your optimistic comments.
I would agree that Tanfoglio's high-end Match and Elite series seem fine, as I've not noted any similar complaints about these models, but that's not what the OP was looking at.
So what is ol' Paul up to these days?
Hope it's keeping him away from the phone so as not to make already irate customers more irate.
Do ya think he's squirreled away in the back, still working on Witnesses returned for service under warranty? I always liked that highly personalized, pithy, and completely unresponsive note Paul would send back after "fixing" with your pistol.
Note would say: [referencing the problem or part complained about, e.g., "extractor sheered off"] "Extractor fixed. Test fired, okay."
Then, predictably, whatever problem you'd returned it for wasn't "fixed" or would fail again. Then repeat the drill ...
See: indigenous THR thread regarding EAA customer service:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=693289
See also: from a different forum, but the same subject:
http://ar15armory.com/forums/topic/81791-10mm-witness-wonderfinish-slide-shattered-after-150-rounds/
"Some" means at least "one," Walt.
I suppose we could find one person in the U.S. who's in love with EAA's customer service after resolving a problem. Conceivably it might not have even required a gunsmith to resolve it ...
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Walt Sherrill
Member
agtman:
I've spent the better part of the last hour doing GOOGLE searches on the topic of EAA slide and frame failures. Lots of mentions dating back 4-5 years, a number of them with your name attached .
There were SURPRISINGLY few actual comments from people who had experienced said failures themselves, but lots of discussions of the problems and how widespread they were. One exception: one fellow said he had his slide replaced three times by EAA, through the dealer from whome he had bought the gun. I don't know the caliber or whether it was the old or new slides design. The link you posted from TFL talks about both a slide and frame failure in the same gun, but it dates back to 2010 -- before the slide change. (That doesn't address the frame problem.) The first one you cite above from THR is about crappy customer service -- no disagreement there. The second one from the THR cites a slide failure but it dates back to 2010 -- before the Tanfoglio fix. Interstingly, one of those frame failures mentioned (cracked rail) was a STAINLESS FRAME, so it wasn't a cheaper, low-end model.
My Google search on the topic led to lot of mentions of a variety of 10mm guns made by different gun makers that also had slide failures. Also some mentions of frame failures, but again discussion of the problems but few individuals actually talking about THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of frame failures. I'll look into that more thoroughly in the near future. (I suspect the BrianEnos.com forum would be a good source, but I'll have to figure out how to get on there -- as I've not visited there in several years, and don't remember my logon ID or password. May have to reregister.)
Some of the gun makers whose gun's slides were cracking apparently solved the problem by cutting away metal [during production] in the areas where the cracks first appear; that fix, counter-intuitively, apparently stopped the cracks. All seem to appear in non-stress areas of the metal. (I've heard of this with 1911s.) Beretta apparently had similar problems with M9 slides cracking during Desert Storm,
I found a lot of understandable concern that the cracks might get worse and lead to dangerous failures. I may have missed some that were really bad, so I'll look again and keep looking.
As I said already, lots of GOOGLE MENTIONS but few actual complaints by those directly affected -- all sorts of discussions by others who had NOT actually had a problem, but "knew" about them... A lot of very satisfied owners, too. But Google searches can be misleading in that respect -- you have to read them all and not just look at the headline that first pops up.
All this said, I'll continue looking and try to find EVIDENCE that will satisfy anyone interested in this topic, and maybe I'll come to agree with. But for the moment, I remain unconvinced.
I've spent the better part of the last hour doing GOOGLE searches on the topic of EAA slide and frame failures. Lots of mentions dating back 4-5 years, a number of them with your name attached .
There were SURPRISINGLY few actual comments from people who had experienced said failures themselves, but lots of discussions of the problems and how widespread they were. One exception: one fellow said he had his slide replaced three times by EAA, through the dealer from whome he had bought the gun. I don't know the caliber or whether it was the old or new slides design. The link you posted from TFL talks about both a slide and frame failure in the same gun, but it dates back to 2010 -- before the slide change. (That doesn't address the frame problem.) The first one you cite above from THR is about crappy customer service -- no disagreement there. The second one from the THR cites a slide failure but it dates back to 2010 -- before the Tanfoglio fix. Interstingly, one of those frame failures mentioned (cracked rail) was a STAINLESS FRAME, so it wasn't a cheaper, low-end model.
My Google search on the topic led to lot of mentions of a variety of 10mm guns made by different gun makers that also had slide failures. Also some mentions of frame failures, but again discussion of the problems but few individuals actually talking about THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of frame failures. I'll look into that more thoroughly in the near future. (I suspect the BrianEnos.com forum would be a good source, but I'll have to figure out how to get on there -- as I've not visited there in several years, and don't remember my logon ID or password. May have to reregister.)
Some of the gun makers whose gun's slides were cracking apparently solved the problem by cutting away metal [during production] in the areas where the cracks first appear; that fix, counter-intuitively, apparently stopped the cracks. All seem to appear in non-stress areas of the metal. (I've heard of this with 1911s.) Beretta apparently had similar problems with M9 slides cracking during Desert Storm,
I found a lot of understandable concern that the cracks might get worse and lead to dangerous failures. I may have missed some that were really bad, so I'll look again and keep looking.
As I said already, lots of GOOGLE MENTIONS but few actual complaints by those directly affected -- all sorts of discussions by others who had NOT actually had a problem, but "knew" about them... A lot of very satisfied owners, too. But Google searches can be misleading in that respect -- you have to read them all and not just look at the headline that first pops up.
All this said, I'll continue looking and try to find EVIDENCE that will satisfy anyone interested in this topic, and maybe I'll come to agree with. But for the moment, I remain unconvinced.
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Okay, Walt, let's review:
The OP is asking about a used .45acp Witness with an aluminum frame, priced "close to $500."
I take it you'd agree that (1) "caveat emptor" is in play here; (2) a thorough, hands-on inspection is warranted; (3) it would be an especially good idea to disassemble the pistol and inspect the interior nooks & crannies for any perceptible evidence of cracks, even if cracks haven't been reported previously on Tanfoglio's aluminum-frame pistols, since there's always a first time and this is a Witness he's looking at; (4) if the OP's LGS will allow it, I'd advise him to do some limited amount of pre-purchase test-firing; and (5), the OP should contact EAA about the current scope of the warranty should the gun have to go back for repairs, since he's not the original purchaser.
Good luck to the OP.
The OP is asking about a used .45acp Witness with an aluminum frame, priced "close to $500."
I take it you'd agree that (1) "caveat emptor" is in play here; (2) a thorough, hands-on inspection is warranted; (3) it would be an especially good idea to disassemble the pistol and inspect the interior nooks & crannies for any perceptible evidence of cracks, even if cracks haven't been reported previously on Tanfoglio's aluminum-frame pistols, since there's always a first time and this is a Witness he's looking at; (4) if the OP's LGS will allow it, I'd advise him to do some limited amount of pre-purchase test-firing; and (5), the OP should contact EAA about the current scope of the warranty should the gun have to go back for repairs, since he's not the original purchaser.
Good luck to the OP.
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Walt Sherrill
Member
I'll keep looking.
And I agree: Buyer Beware is a good approach for any USED firearm. I've been burned a few times, over the years -- but not by subsequent frame or slide cracks.
I'll also try to find an "aluminum"-framed Witness/Tanfoglio handgun. Every one I've ever seen, owned, shot, or read about was either STEEL (with various finishes or treatments) or Polymer. I certainly have NOT read about a cracked aluminum-framed Tanfoglio. It's a minor point, I know, but as far as I can tell, an aluminum frame is not something Tanfoglio has ever offered under their own brand, or as a Witness (via EAA). Maybe Tanfoglio built aluminum-frame guns years ago? Or, perhaps, I just missed THOSE guns, because I was so busy reading first-hand reports about cracked slides and frames? There are only so many hours in the day...
If anybody reading here has an aluminum-framed Tanfoglio let us know -- as that would put part of the discussion to rest. If you're not sure whether it's steel or aluminum, a magnet won't stick to aluminum.
(By the way: those silver "Wonder Finish"-ed Witnesses aren't aluminum. That "Wonder Finish" isn't really a finish; it's a surface hardening treatment of the steel frame; the silver coating is applied AFTER the treatment. EAA discusses the nature of the "finish" on their website.)
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And I agree: Buyer Beware is a good approach for any USED firearm. I've been burned a few times, over the years -- but not by subsequent frame or slide cracks.
I'll also try to find an "aluminum"-framed Witness/Tanfoglio handgun. Every one I've ever seen, owned, shot, or read about was either STEEL (with various finishes or treatments) or Polymer. I certainly have NOT read about a cracked aluminum-framed Tanfoglio. It's a minor point, I know, but as far as I can tell, an aluminum frame is not something Tanfoglio has ever offered under their own brand, or as a Witness (via EAA). Maybe Tanfoglio built aluminum-frame guns years ago? Or, perhaps, I just missed THOSE guns, because I was so busy reading first-hand reports about cracked slides and frames? There are only so many hours in the day...
If anybody reading here has an aluminum-framed Tanfoglio let us know -- as that would put part of the discussion to rest. If you're not sure whether it's steel or aluminum, a magnet won't stick to aluminum.
(By the way: those silver "Wonder Finish"-ed Witnesses aren't aluminum. That "Wonder Finish" isn't really a finish; it's a surface hardening treatment of the steel frame; the silver coating is applied AFTER the treatment. EAA discusses the nature of the "finish" on their website.)
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No, actually that's good point because, although I've seen and handled many standard and a few compact Witnesses, none of them had aluminum frames. I don't know if the one the OP looked at was a newer model or, possibly, an older one from a run of alum-frame models that Tanfoglio produced, sent to EAA to test-market in the U.S., and then discontinued (for whatever reason).
dfariswheel
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Until the last few years when EAA introduced the plastic Witness series I kept up with Tanfoglio pretty closely.
I never heard of an aluminum framed Tanfoglio CZ-type pistol.
I do have a fairly rare, limited issue STAINLESS STEEL EAA Witness .45.
Only the frame and slide are stainless, everything else is blued steel.
Note this is NOT a Wonder Finish, it's a true stainless gun and so marked on the box.
EAA only imported these for a year or so in the early 1990's.
I'm not sure why they stopped production.
I never heard of an aluminum framed Tanfoglio CZ-type pistol.
I do have a fairly rare, limited issue STAINLESS STEEL EAA Witness .45.
Only the frame and slide are stainless, everything else is blued steel.
Note this is NOT a Wonder Finish, it's a true stainless gun and so marked on the box.
EAA only imported these for a year or so in the early 1990's.
I'm not sure why they stopped production.
The Bushmaster
Member
They went out of business...
Walt Sherrill
Member
Neither Tanfoglio nor EAA went out of business...
Walt Sherrill
Member
dfariswheel said:
I've seen a couple of the stainless guns in photos.
All of the silver ones, now, are chrome plated. (If it's an older gun, it may have that silver version of Wonder Finish -- those frequently developed spots that looked like mold or rust.)
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