America tolerates no heros.....

[orangeninja]

I've noticed an interesting trend in America since the mid to late 90's, America no longer wants to acknowledge or respect its hero’s. It's not okay to be a combat vet; it's not okay to stick to your moral convictions if they somehow offend someone else, it’s not okay to make the guilty feel guilty or call wrong, wrong. Remember when justice was carried out for the sake of the ideal of justice and not for some practical purpose?

Maybe I'm being jaded, but remember when being called a cowboy was a praise and not admonishment, when John Wayne was the guy you rooted for and believing that Christopher Columbus was courageous was okay.

Remember when things like honor, duty and going above and beyond were rewarded and praised, not political posturing. Remember when heroes were humble, brave and selfless? Remember when America knew that the horror of war required sacrifice, but dying for freedom was a worthy cause and one of somber pride. Remember America?

Remember when being the best at anything was encourage and success worthy of note. Remember when bigger and better were more than just catch phrases and “extreme†meant unusual or beyond the norm and not just used to sell sport drinks? Remember when America’s heroes were just normal guys who went to that extreme and never gave up?

Remember cheering at the T.V. during whenever the bad guy lost without the added guilt of trying to understand how the bad guy was really just “misunderstood†or a “victim�

Remember when good and bad was just that, and there seemed to be a clear line?

Remember when cowardice was not bravery and bravery not cowardice?

Remember when fighting for an ideal above yourself was honorable and dying for your ideals spoke of your personal heroism.

We have forgot who we are.

The A-Team has been replaced with 7th Heaven and the Knight Rider has become a cheesy lounge singer.

Christopher Columbus was a merciless slayer of Native Americans who couldn’t find his way out of a paper bag.

A cowboy is an insensitive lout who bulls his way to his objective hurting people’s feelings along the way and John Wayne is a guy who doesn’t get along with others.

Guns are responsible for crime and criminals are misunderstood. America is rich, greedy, selfish and deadly, we should hang our heads as a nation in shame. Being American is being a “cowboy†and if the French and Germans don’t like you, why then you must be a John Wayne.

We no longer have just male and female, men, women, boy or girl; we now have "Metrosexuals" who are men who refuse to be men.

Could it be that the feminization of America has caused insecurity in men to where the mere idea of a hero or a masculine figure threatens their very sensibilities and self worth?

Is being a red meat eating, hiking through the woods to kill a deer, loving one woman, believing in God, American wrong? Is believing in Justice and willing to die for Freedom ignorant? Am I alone?

 

[Tommy Gunn]

We live in decadent times, sort of like Rome in its last days.

 

[Ryder]

That's odd

I am proud of my abilities and accomplishments. Should I be proud of someone elses? Their accomplishments are not mine. I think it boils down to needing heros or being one. Nancy boys are not like us. I don't expect to ever understand why.

Just thought I'd let you know you're not alone yet.

 

[2nd Amendment]

No, not alone. But the numbers are dwindling. These are the last days of a diminished society and barring some miracle, a true resurgence among the average Joe or a truly great leader who can genuinely inspire, I'd say the great experiment has come to a rather lame end.

Before anyone pops in to upbraid me I know, I know...America will last for all eternity and "it" can't happen here. Yeah, yeah...move along now. Nope, nuthin' ta see...

 

[Standing Wolf]

These are the last days of a diminished society...

Diminished, yes, but America may linger long past its prime. One thinks of France, or England, or...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Ah, the often repeated nostalgia that things were better in the past and how those remembering the past feel the people of the present have erred in their ways and values.

FYI, this happens with every generation. The older generation feels that the ways and values of their upbringing are proper and correct and often fail to accept that the new generation has their own perspectives on things and also fail to realize that they were once the erring, poor quality offspring of their parent's generation.

alduro, I have no idea what perceived reality you have of the past, but I don't think you are adapting too well to the changing times.

While justice may be an ideal, it has always been based in trying to attain practical results.

There has never been a clear line between good and bad, although you may have thought it was that way.

I have to figure this judgment of current society is awfully confused with the A-Team is given as an example of when society was so much better off. Your reference to TV dichotomies as reflecting the proper values of the old days is really silly. TV stuff is cooked up by writers. The value systems depicted were often overly simplified and not representative of the real world.

What of when heroes used to be humble? Oh, you mean folks like Patton, Wild Bill Hickock, Custer, Grant, and Sherman?

The reference to feminism is absurd. If feminists make you feel insecure, the problem is not with the feminists.

Dying for your ideals only seems to speak volumes about your character when there is somebody present who knows how you died and for what reasons. There is no speaking for character if no one knows what happened.

"Remember when America knew that the horror of war required sacrifice, but dying for freedom was a worthy cause and one of somber pride." If you remember that, then you must also remember when our country sent our boys into harm's way without them fully understanding the reasons for going to war or were given reasons that were propaganda. So remember when we lied to our soldiers?

As for Christopher Columbus and holding him as courageous hasn't changed at all, but our teaching of his accounts is no longer fixated on his fortuitous encounter with the New World. Columbus was many things other than the lucky explorer and he did do many horrible things. What is wrong with teaching the whole story? Basically the courageous story of Columbus really isn't anything more than propaganda when it isn't presented in proper context.

"Is believing in Justice and willing to die for Freedom ignorant?" Nope, but not for the reason you seem to try to be conveying. Being ignorant means to not have knowledge. Believing in something isn't a matter of ignorance. Whether or not you die for freedom isn't a matter of ingorance.

You talk about values within American before we forgot who we were and slipped down the slippery slope to our present situation. Apparently you have forgotten or decided not to mention that in the good old days that women and blacks were not allowed to vote, sexual harrasment in the work place was not illegal, and where wholesale dumping of pollutants into our evnironment went unchecked.

 

[ralphie98]

You are not alone. now, I am not an old man reminiscing about the old days by any stretch of the imagination, but I've thought the same thoughts. This is more of a summary of society in general but can't be said about everybody. I still think that being a cowboy is a good thing. In my world, a criminal is not a victim of society, they are criminals and should be treated as such. Not much we can do about it though. Change is constant and inevitable.

 

[DRZinn]

our country sent our boys into harm's way without them fully understanding the reasons for going to war

I hear this more and more, mostly from the left (but hey, who's counting?). Speaking as one of "our boys" (until last year): They DON'T NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHY they're going to war. They put their trust in their leaders, and do what they're told. Not that that trust is never violated; it's a legitimate criticism to say that we didn't have enough information, or solid enough information, to go to war. But please, don't say it's wrong just because the troops didn't understand.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

The good old days weren't that good. All too often people remember and dream of the aspects they like best about the past while completely dismissing the negatives.

 

[2nd Amendment]

The good old days were mighty damn good for a lot of people in a lot of ways. Regardless, this typical response of how they were not "that good" doesn't address the claim that they were still far better than today in a great many respects.

 

[R.H. Lee]

There has never been a clear line between good and bad, although you may have thought it was that way.

Heartfelt condolences to you, Double Naught Spy, as yet another victim of moral relativism.

 

[halvey]

we now have "Metrosexuals" who are men who refuse to be men.

Maybe if their fathers stuck around we wouldn't have this problem.

I agree with what you said though.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

You're not alone, but the feeling you've described is non-existant to those who refuse to acknowlege it ever existed.

 

[Cosmoline]

The problem is we now realize that the creation of Heroes is an artificial process, and is usually part of propagandizing the past. As Ira Hayes would have told you, John Wayne's Iwo Jima was bravo sierra. And I suspect Ira would have had some choice words about the "heroism" of Columbus.

Here's a letter from one of Columbus' gratified captains:

"We sent the other Cannibals together with the two slaves to Spain. When I was in the boat, I took a beautiful Cannibal girl and the admiral gave her to me. Having her in my room and she being naked as is their custom, I began to want to amuse myself with her. Since I wanted to have my way with her and she was not willing, she worked me over so badly with her nails that I wished I had never begun. To get to the end of the story, seeing how things were going, I got a rope and tied her up so tightly that she made unheard of cries which you wouldn't have believed. At the end, we got along so well that, let me tell you, it seemed she had studied at a school for whores. The admiral named the cape on that island the cape of the Arrow for the man who was killed by the arrow. "

The only thing those "heroes" deserved was a bullet to the head. Could I go back in time, I'd gladly give it to them. I'm glad my state stopped celebrating Columbus Day. That's not moral relativism, that's just knowing right from wrong.

 

[Evil_Ed]

Should be "Leif Erickson Day" if you want to celebrate the europeans finding America...or in reality it should be "Native American Day" to celebrate the hardy people that walked across a frozen land bridge to find a new place to live.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, if the title of "discoverer" belongs to the SECOND group of people to reach the new world, the Eskimos would have it. They came across in a second wave after the Indians and Aleuts had been here for many thousands of years.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

2nd Amendment

Regardless, this typical response of how they were not "that good" doesn't address the claim that they were still far better than today in a great many respects.

Go ahead and pick the year, then we can debate about how good it was back then.

halvey

we now have "Metrosexuals" who are men who refuse to be men.

Maybe if their fathers stuck around we wouldn't have this problem.

If that's the way you feel about guys who take care of themselves, I'd hate to hear what you have to say about gays.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

Maybe Alduro's examples are flawed, but I think he is pointing to something much higher than what some of you have chosen as fodder.

 

[halvey]

If that's the way you feel about guys who take care of themselves, I'd hate to hear what you have to say about gays.

No you wouldn't. I have nothing bad to say about gays.

 

[Joe Demko]

People still have heroes. Kids still look up to their parents and so on. We are, however, becoming more resistant as a group to the institutionally manufactured propaganda heroes that Cosmoline described. That is a good thing.
Anyhow, view the past through rose colored glasses if you must. Throughout much of its history, the US was an absolutely smashing place for heterosexual property-owning white guys. In fact, it still is. The difference is that it is now becoming an absolutely smashing place for everybody else too.

 

[orangeninja]

Nostalgia it is not.......in fact I was using Television, because like it or not, the quote, "you may judge a society by it's prison's" no longer holds true. Nowdays you may judge a society by it's entertainment.

Columbus.....Sailor, worked with sailors who were probably not such great guys.

Eskimos found America first? Probably.

Native Americans second? Probably

Celts Third? Not doudtful. However Columbus was the first to exploit it for european purposes....which face the facts...led to modern America.

America has always had problems...slavery, womens rights, etc. and today is no exception. We still live in the best country in the world with the most freedoms.

However, it is peculiar that America refuses to accept any MODERN heros drumming it up to propiganda.

I'm too young to be nostalgic, I'm in my 20's. I also advocate taking care of oneself, excercise, read a book every now and then, get an education, shave, dress for success etc. The term "Metrosexual" however seems to be the modern "IDEAL" for a man, however it has nothing to do with masculinity.....

I am sure my ideals are flawed...but todays America problems seems to be going too far with the worries of offending sensibilities rather than using a sense of right and wrong. I cannot accept that anyone buying and using slaves thought this to be morally right deep within their heart, however selfishness overrode a moral objection.

I do not subscribe to moral relativism.....I think it is the basis for the downfall of society.....this is where Communists saw the weakness in a democratic society based upon the assumption that all people ultimately are hedonistic.

What do you think?

 

[BigG]

Alduro, like many respondents to your question, you are not alone. There are many who believe we are going through a dark time right now. Values are upside down with the media trying to throw gasoline onto the fire.

 

[BigG]

Standing Wolf: So you're saying someday America may grow up to be England or [gasp!] France.

 

[orangeninja]

Thanks Big G.............I would like to hear from a moral relativist...call it a philosophical inquiry, I would like to be convinced I am wrong.

Double Naught Spy? I welcome your side.


I accept genuine critique...but not bomb throwing.

 

[Correia]

I think you are totally wrong. And I don't know what society you live in, but it is not the same one I live in.

We have heroes all around us. I for one am seeing a surge of pride in our communities for our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines. Actual bonafide respect. Little kids are being taught that these young men that are returning from Afghanistan and Iraq are heros, and it is sticking.

The A-Team? Knight Rider? What the heck? Make belive. John Wayne? Make belive.

I'll take Todd Beamer, Pat Tillman, or the firemen in the WTC. A guy I go to church with got his legs smashed and lost his hearing because of an IED, and he was willing to go back if his hearing returned. My best buddy reinlisted and spent the last year living in a one of the crappiest countries in the world. He left behind a wife and two beautiful little girls. That is heroism.

On this very board, John Shirley and ArmySon left behind everything to enlist after September 11th. They are heroes. And there thousands more just like them.

Heroism is the ten year old who, using his deceased father's pistol, shot the scumbag crack head who was holding his grandmother hostage.

A hero is the uncle who pulled a freaking shark out of the ocean with his bare hands, beats it into submission, and prys open its jaws to pull out his nephew's severed arm.

A hero is the young wife who supports her husband with cancer.

A hero is the child who is still brave even though they are so sick they can't understand it.

A hero is somebody who gives a kidney to a loved one.

A hero is the rescuer hanging from a bungee cord off of a bridge embankment trying to pull somebody out of a sinking car in flood waters.

A hero is the little girl in Merced California who threw herself at the crazed home invader and got pitch forked to death so that her younger siblings could run away.

I don't buy for one split second that we as a society don't honor our heroes more than our past generations. The loosers in our society don't, but that is why there are loosers. If they can't see these things, then that is their loss.

A hero is somebody who steps up to the plate and does what needs to be done, regardless of how much it is going to hurt. There are heroes all around us. I can see them. I know many of you can. I'm trying to raise my kids so that they will recognize these people. That is my society.

You can keep the A-Team.