American Rifleman .357 Mag Tests

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Interesting article though really only focus on the two legged self defense role. My first revolver was a 357 Mag (Blackhawk Covertable) and yet now with a modest collection (nearly all double action) I have very much lost any love I had for the 357 Magnum cartridge. As someone that carries (concealed and open while in the woods), competes (USPSA & IDPA) and hunts with a revolver I no longer reach for a 357 Magnum revolver for any of my revolver applications. I have better cartridges in revolvers for any application I want a revolver for. The 357 Magnum in today choices of revolvers and what they are chambered in has become the jack of all trade and master of none.
 
mcb said:
Interesting article though really only focus on the two legged self defense role.
Click to expand...

I suppose the data could be applied to the field. As an example, that Buffalo Bore 140gr load might be a decent choice for hiking/fishing in bear country although I probably wouldn't carry a belly gun in that particular environment.

As we learn more and more about terminal performance we're seeing many of the scared cows sacrificed on the altar of truth...
 
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My rule of thumb has always been heavier slugs = better penetration in nearly all applications not involving 2 legged predators.
Woods walking with the potential presence of bears, I would be looking at 180gr loadings from Buffalo Bore or similar. In those cases I really don't care about expansion. I want to get the deepest penetrating round I can find.

For 2 legged predator protection, even the 125gr loadings are going to cause enough damage to be effective.

That said I am in the same camp as mcb. If I am headed to the woods, I find my 44mag is more likely to come than the .357. The weight is not that much different but the performance on just about everything is quite a step up.
 
This article highlights one of the reasons why I now often carry my 3" Kimber K6S. That extra inch of barrel, in addition to giving me a better sight radius, also improves the ballistics of both .357 and .38 +P ammo.
 
I disagree with the assessment of the results. Certainly, there were some bullet designs tested that opened too fast and failed to penetrate, but there were others tested that opened to full diameter and still penetrated denim and gel to 19 inches from the LCR -- Speer Gold Dot and Buffalo Bore.

At 1300fps, the Buffalo Bore cartridge is going to have a lot of recoil, but that same Barnes XPB bullet is also loaded by Barnes brand (Remington) factory ammo and by Federal. In those more moderate loadings, they have both achieved 16+ inches of penetration in denim and gel tests with velocities of around 1170 and 1100 fps respectively from a 2" barrel.

The measurement of a successfully opened hollowpoint has to be considered. With a petal-type hollowpoint like a Black Talon, SXT, Gold Dot, XTP, Golden Saber, and especially the Barnes TAC-XP (which is all petals and no lead core), the bullet opens to a maximum diameter, and then if it continues to be driven, the petals are forced back and folded against the base of the bullet. A final measurement may show 0.50" but the bullet actually opened as much as 0.70" in the wound channel, and if a cartridge is designed right, it's opening to maximum diameter where it counts. The Buffalo Bore is "over-expanding" but at 19". Within the AR's test criteria, which they apparently adopted from the FBI, at 12" to 18" the expansion could have been optimal.

As for recoil, yes, .357 has more of it than black-powder pressure .38 Special curios and relics. Whether this kind of recoil interferes with the function and purpose probably depends on the shooter. I've read gun writers dismiss the 9mm LCR for excessive recoil with minimal ballistic gains over .38, but I've also seen shooters clear plate racks in the same amount of time whether using a gun and cartridge combination of of low-recoil or high. I think the "follow-up" shot speed thing is mostly a myth.
 
I would have preferred to see the same velocity/penetration tests done through the longer GP.
Denis
 
labnoti said:
I disagree with the assessment of the results. Certainly, there were some bullet designs tested that opened too fast and failed to penetrate, but there were others tested that opened to full diameter and still penetrated denim and gel to 19 inches from the LCR -- Speer Gold Dot and Buffalo Bore.
Click to expand...

The 158gr Gold Dot didn't expand much at all after the heavy clothing barrier. Probably not much of a surprise since it is a hunting load/bullet and probably designed for performance from something like a 6" barrel.

357_4.jpg
 
If you want penetration and expansion from a handgun as small and light as the LCR, significant recoil is going to be part of the equation. If you prefer the performance of a .44 magnum that's fine, but I haven't talked to anyone who waxed eloquent on the joys of full house loads out of a 329. And along with the step up in performance, you step up in size and weight. If you're willing to step up to the weight and size of an N Frame, that's fine, but if you're looking for a lightweight pocket gun, tough to choose a more powerful round than the .357. And the article points out what performance to expect from the tested rounds from a 17 ounce handgun.
 
Decades ago a bud brought out a Pawn Shop buy he had made, it was a snub nose It had to be a round butt M19, which is a K frame. What I recall is that the thing was LOUD! and it kicked. The wood round butt grips just tore up my hand. I decided, a snub nose 38 Special was the way to go.

I looked at the referenced article, I seem to have missed a comparison of 38 Specials and 357's from two inch barrels. Surely the 357 is more powerful, but even so, I don't want the blast, recoil, or weight in a pocket pistol.
 
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I think everyone is pretty much on board with the fact that J frame-sized guns shooting .357 Magnum loads are downright miserable, and even more miserable with the exotic lightweight frames.

The increased horsepower the .357 offers over the .38/.38+P does give the bullets more energy and a deeper depth of penetration that could make a difference in a shooting situation, especially if your assailant turns and the bullet needs to penetrate a bicep before the torso is even struck. But the cost is paid in blast/recoil discomfort, the associated flinches, the lack of desire to practice with the carried ammo, etc.

All of my small frame snubs are .38 Spl for the same reasons the poster above stated. I do have K-frame 2.5” and 3” .357s that I will stoke with magnums on occasion, but even those guns stink to shoot with full house loads.

The results are about what I would expect from the magnums, especially when compared to .38 Special loads from similar guns, but for me they’re just a bit too much to shoot often enough to shoot well.

Stay safe!
 
Pudge said:
If you want penetration and expansion from a handgun as small and light as the LCR, significant recoil is going to be part of the equation.
Click to expand...

Two loads that expanded and met the 12-18" specs are the GBW/Barnes 125 and the Hornady 135. Both are not loaded to max velocities and aren't likely to produce punishing recoil. Still more recoil than a 38 but not so much that a decent shooter can't master them without a little practice.
 
I shoot at my residence, and frequently. But I do not often shoot a large volume of rounds at once. Generally 50 or fewer from anything I shoot. I have shot full house rounds out of an LCR .357. After 20 my wrist lets me know that I've shot enough. So, I do find magnum recoil from the LCR punishing in the cumulative, but I enjoy it. It forces me to be disciplined, and rewards me if I do my job. I have found that 1000 fps and a 158gr cast bullet is very doable (and not what I'd consider punishing), and probably comparable (in recoil) to the GBW and Hornady rounds tested. So you are correct. BUT not many of the people who shoot with me (really only one other guy) are the least bit interested in shooting magnums from the LCR after doing it once. So, the .357 detractors are likely correct from their perspective. However their perspective isn't universal.
 
I bet his shingles are curling, his gate is shakey and the doors are dragging the threshold. A house like that deserves a good shooting.

My bud was playing with his Ruger Vaquero 357 and drew a bead on the bedroom wall. He was surprised by a load boom from an embarrassing ND. But now all his clocks keep perfect time, food never burns in the oven and the doors hang straight. His house knows who's in charge.:evil:
 
Can you hit the broad side of this residence at which you shoot?
 
FWIW, the reloads I make for my .357 are either a 158 gr. JHP OR JSP. With both being 158 gr., I don't need to change the powder charge. According to the manual I have, using W296 at just 0.1 gr. below a MAX charge, this provides the highest velocity of all the powders listed. The only problem is the testers there were using a 7" barrel and my GP-100 is a 4" barrel, so there will be some velocity loss because of that 3".
 
I think he, as a resident, would be shooting the house, as his residence.
I think.
Denis
 
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