Hello, the question I have is pertaining to my wife who has nerve damage and is recoil sensitive to the max. I have a 9 shot 22lr and a .357 magnum for the night bed stand. She can handle the 22lr no problem but I really want to move up to 38spl in the .357 to have more reliability of a center fire and more stopping power. I normally shoot .357 ammo out of the magnum snub nose but for her I have a lot of 38spl LRN 158gr lying around, plus some magtech 38spl +p 95gr gr schp. I find these not bad to shoot but wonder if the light grain is a problem in a SD tuation out of the two which would you recommend the lead ball round nose 158 gr or the 95gr +p gr schp.
ammo compromise
- Thread starter snow
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Neither one is ideal. I recently fired some Winchester 130-grain self-defense ammo from my Colt Detective Special into my Fackler box and got expansion to about 1/2" and penetration of about 24 inches (equal to about 13-14 inches in ordnance gelatin. I would recommend the Winchester SD on those results.
Do you think a basic wadcutter would be better. I really like corbon but find they are hotter and the recoil a lot harsher something she would not be able to handle. I would rather her have 5 shots on target that are not optimal than 5 misses.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Standard wadcutters at around 700 fps, a very light load, give about 30" penetration -- equal to 16-17" in ordnance gelatim. Of course they don't expand, but they do cut a full diameter hole. I would not hesitate to use them for self defense.
Hondo 60
Member
If you reload your own, you get to tailor your ammo to what ever you want.
But I wouldn't hesitate to use any 38 spl.
You have to remember, this is what the cops used for about 50 years or more.
But I wouldn't hesitate to use any 38 spl.
You have to remember, this is what the cops used for about 50 years or more.
Lucky Derby
Member
Another vote for standard velocity wadcutters.
hardluk1
member
Also one more item that might help would be a grip that fits her hand better than what you have now? Not knowing the revolvers weight and frame most of use are guessing but some low power wad cutters would be the best ammo for her to practice with and then over time she may step up with the loads to something better. My wife likes my taurus 85 with a small hogue rubber grip but hates a model 10 k frame with any grip.
Last edited:
And another from me.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Snow - good place for some wadcutters is Atlanta Arms. I've shot more than a case of Dan's 148 gr FMJ wadcutters, no problems. Have to email the owner for pricing..
http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/products.html
http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/products.html
weregunner
Member
There are better rounds than wadcutters to use. Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Velocity
Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
P38MA 38 Special 830 776 727 682 641
Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)
Energy
Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
P38MA 38 Special 191 167 147 129 114
There are the Federal 125gr.Nyclad:
Federal Cartridge P38MA PerDef 38 SPL 125gr NY HP(Per 20)
$15 - 22 stores
Federal FEP38MA FED PD Nyclad 38SPL 125gr HP 20/500
$19 - 5 stores
Federal personal Defense .38 Special 125 Grain Nyclad Hollow Point
$17 - 4 stores
If not the Nyclads then this will do.
Load No Caliber Grains/ Grams Bullet Style Brand Use
PD38HS3H 38 Special 110 / 7.13 Hydra-Shok® JHP Premium® Personal Defense®
Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Velocity
Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
PD38HS3H 38 Special 980 943 911 882 855
Winchester does have this.
Product Symbol: X38S9HP
Description:
Winchester's Super-X Silvertip remains one of the most dependable and performance-proven handgun cartridges ever created. Originally developed for Law Enforcement to replace traditional hollow point bullets, Super-X S ilvertip handgun ammunition continues to offer a unique combination of power, precision, reliable functioning, and on-target performance via a specially engineered jacketed bullet
Suggested Use:
Features:
Sure Functioning, Optimum Energy Deposit, Accurate, Controlled Recoil
Cartridge: 38 SpecialBullet Weight: 110Muzzle Velocity: 945Ballistic Co-efficient: Barrel Length: 4.00" Vented
Buffalo Bore has one load that would be of help here.
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Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (900fps/M.E. 225 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box
Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.
1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
Please use a JHP round and not a round nosed bullet for defense.
If the Winchester 130gr. round has a JHP bullet it would make a great round.
If not any of the 110gr. standard pressure rounds will fill the bill.
Velocity
Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
P38MA 38 Special 830 776 727 682 641
Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)
Energy
Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
P38MA 38 Special 191 167 147 129 114
There are the Federal 125gr.Nyclad:
Federal Cartridge P38MA PerDef 38 SPL 125gr NY HP(Per 20)
$15 - 22 stores
Federal FEP38MA FED PD Nyclad 38SPL 125gr HP 20/500
$19 - 5 stores
Federal personal Defense .38 Special 125 Grain Nyclad Hollow Point
$17 - 4 stores
If not the Nyclads then this will do.
Load No Caliber Grains/ Grams Bullet Style Brand Use
PD38HS3H 38 Special 110 / 7.13 Hydra-Shok® JHP Premium® Personal Defense®
Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Velocity
Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
PD38HS3H 38 Special 980 943 911 882 855
Winchester does have this.
Product Symbol: X38S9HP
Description:
Winchester's Super-X Silvertip remains one of the most dependable and performance-proven handgun cartridges ever created. Originally developed for Law Enforcement to replace traditional hollow point bullets, Super-X S ilvertip handgun ammunition continues to offer a unique combination of power, precision, reliable functioning, and on-target performance via a specially engineered jacketed bullet
Suggested Use:
Features:
Sure Functioning, Optimum Energy Deposit, Accurate, Controlled Recoil
Cartridge: 38 SpecialBullet Weight: 110Muzzle Velocity: 945Ballistic Co-efficient: Barrel Length: 4.00" Vented
Buffalo Bore has one load that would be of help here.
Login Username:
Password:
Forgot Password?
SKU: 20E/20
List Price: $29.33
Our Price: $26.66
Your Savings: $2.67
Quantity:
OverviewReviewsTell a Friend
Overview
Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (900fps/M.E. 225 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box
Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.
1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
Please use a JHP round and not a round nosed bullet for defense.
If the Winchester 130gr. round has a JHP bullet it would make a great round.
If not any of the 110gr. standard pressure rounds will fill the bill.
weregunner
Member
Let's tackle this from another angle.
There are two rounds in .22lrf that can be used forf defense use if the other calibers are too much.
The CCI Stinger and the Quik-shok rounds come to mind.
Here is some data thoug old that is still pertinent as it give you idea what .22lrf rounds can and cannot do.
22 Long RifleTop Loads10 mm22 Long Rifle223 Remington25 ACP30 Carbine30-30308 Winchester32 ACP357 Magnum357 SIG38 Special38 Special +P38 Special +P+380 ACP40 S&W41 Magnum44 Magnum44 Special45 ACP45 ACP +P45 Colt9 mm9 mm +P9 mm +P+
All All
22 Long Rifle Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Quik Shok HP 10 4 40% 0" 6.7"
CCI Stinger HP 465 178 38% 0.28" 7.3"
Winchester HP 654 196 30% 0.29" 9.6"
Federal HP 722 214 30% 0.26" 8.8"
Remington HP 988 296 29% 0.25" 9.1"
Winchester Solid 1644 348
Same goes for standard pressure .38s.
38 Special Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Federal 129 gr HS 77 50 65% 0.56" 10.2" 2" revolver
Federal 125 gr Nyclad 46 29 63% 0.56" 10.4" 2" revolver
Federal 158 gr LRN 421 208 49% 0.357" 17.1" 2" revolver
Federal 158 gr LRN 592 288 47% 0.357" 17.1" 4" revolver
4 loads
This info is from 2006.
Though the 110gr. rounds were not included in that base they do better than the round nosed ammo and wadcutters. Not by much as far as wadcutters go, but having a hollowpoint or JHP is paramount.
How about going to a pistol with a tip up barrel?
Beretta and Taurus make such models.
There is the Beretta 86 that is a used gun model in .380ACP, but has the tip up barrel for unloading and loading. No need for racking the slide.
Beretta makes the .32 ACP 3032 Tomcat. It has light recoil compared to any .380ACP, but more power than the smaller calibers.
I own the Tomcat and it is reliable and durable.
Beretta makes the model 21A in .22lrf. It is smaller and has the tip barrel. It's a double action first shot and then single action trigger pull.
Taurus makes the model PT22 that has the tip up barrel, but has a light DAO trigger.
I own two and they are durable and reliable.
If this does not do it how about going to a .32 caliber revolvers.
Taurus, Charter Arms, S&W, and other make these.
The good thing is that the .327 Federal magnum revolvers can shoot .32 H&R magnuns, and .32 S&W Longs through them. Even a .32 H&R magnum revolver of any make is nothing to sneeze at. It shoots .380 ACP or .38 Special bullet weights (some that is) at these caliber velocities.
I own 1 Taurus 327, 1 Ruger SP-101, and a Ruger GP-100 in .327 Federal magnum.
.32 S&W Longs make a good beginners and sensitive to recoil user's round.
There actually are a few defense rounds for this caliber in .32 S&W Long.
Need a bit more power? The .32 H&R magnum comes to mind.
These .32 caliber revolvers have much lighter trigger pulls than do most, if not all, .22lrf revolvers. Yes, I own a few .22lrf revolvers,too.
The Ruger or new Charter Arms .32 revolvers come to mind. S&W prices just seem high or prohibitive to me. My opinion.
The Charter Arms .32s have been getting good reviews as a whole.
73270 - 2.2" Patriot, SS Std
73274 - 4" Patriot, SS Std
www.charterarms.com
I also found out that the .32 ACP in a CZ83 or a Taurus PT132 works well.
Need a .380ACP? Then the CZ83 or PT138, Taurus, would work well.
The Taurus has dual recoil springs that soak up the energy.
We'll end it there.
There are two rounds in .22lrf that can be used forf defense use if the other calibers are too much.
The CCI Stinger and the Quik-shok rounds come to mind.
Here is some data thoug old that is still pertinent as it give you idea what .22lrf rounds can and cannot do.
22 Long RifleTop Loads10 mm22 Long Rifle223 Remington25 ACP30 Carbine30-30308 Winchester32 ACP357 Magnum357 SIG38 Special38 Special +P38 Special +P+380 ACP40 S&W41 Magnum44 Magnum44 Special45 ACP45 ACP +P45 Colt9 mm9 mm +P9 mm +P+
All All
22 Long Rifle Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Quik Shok HP 10 4 40% 0" 6.7"
CCI Stinger HP 465 178 38% 0.28" 7.3"
Winchester HP 654 196 30% 0.29" 9.6"
Federal HP 722 214 30% 0.26" 8.8"
Remington HP 988 296 29% 0.25" 9.1"
Winchester Solid 1644 348
Same goes for standard pressure .38s.
38 Special Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Federal 129 gr HS 77 50 65% 0.56" 10.2" 2" revolver
Federal 125 gr Nyclad 46 29 63% 0.56" 10.4" 2" revolver
Federal 158 gr LRN 421 208 49% 0.357" 17.1" 2" revolver
Federal 158 gr LRN 592 288 47% 0.357" 17.1" 4" revolver
4 loads
This info is from 2006.
Though the 110gr. rounds were not included in that base they do better than the round nosed ammo and wadcutters. Not by much as far as wadcutters go, but having a hollowpoint or JHP is paramount.
How about going to a pistol with a tip up barrel?
Beretta and Taurus make such models.
There is the Beretta 86 that is a used gun model in .380ACP, but has the tip up barrel for unloading and loading. No need for racking the slide.
Beretta makes the .32 ACP 3032 Tomcat. It has light recoil compared to any .380ACP, but more power than the smaller calibers.
I own the Tomcat and it is reliable and durable.
Beretta makes the model 21A in .22lrf. It is smaller and has the tip barrel. It's a double action first shot and then single action trigger pull.
Taurus makes the model PT22 that has the tip up barrel, but has a light DAO trigger.
I own two and they are durable and reliable.
If this does not do it how about going to a .32 caliber revolvers.
Taurus, Charter Arms, S&W, and other make these.
The good thing is that the .327 Federal magnum revolvers can shoot .32 H&R magnuns, and .32 S&W Longs through them. Even a .32 H&R magnum revolver of any make is nothing to sneeze at. It shoots .380 ACP or .38 Special bullet weights (some that is) at these caliber velocities.
I own 1 Taurus 327, 1 Ruger SP-101, and a Ruger GP-100 in .327 Federal magnum.
.32 S&W Longs make a good beginners and sensitive to recoil user's round.
There actually are a few defense rounds for this caliber in .32 S&W Long.
Need a bit more power? The .32 H&R magnum comes to mind.
These .32 caliber revolvers have much lighter trigger pulls than do most, if not all, .22lrf revolvers. Yes, I own a few .22lrf revolvers,too.
The Ruger or new Charter Arms .32 revolvers come to mind. S&W prices just seem high or prohibitive to me. My opinion.
The Charter Arms .32s have been getting good reviews as a whole.
73270 - 2.2" Patriot, SS Std
73274 - 4" Patriot, SS Std
www.charterarms.com
I also found out that the .32 ACP in a CZ83 or a Taurus PT132 works well.
Need a .380ACP? Then the CZ83 or PT138, Taurus, would work well.
The Taurus has dual recoil springs that soak up the energy.
We'll end it there.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
I disagree, it's way down the list for the OP. He needs a load that his wife can handle with confidence in that .38. Shooting that .38 often is how she can gain that confidence.
As for hollowpoints in general, it's my load of choice. But to be a knowledgeable shooter, you really have to dig a bit into the exacts of a given load. As an example, most .380 JHPs under penetrate IMHO. So for my .380 caliber handguns, I stick with ball.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP ammunition performance in ballistic gelatin.pdf
mgmorden
Member
That's what it all boils down to IMHO. A lot of people get a little wrapped up in ballistics data. Self defense isn't a math problem - most criminals are after something. Robbers want money or valuables - rapists want other things, but neither outside of that "Hopped up on PCP" criminal that is far more common in hypotheticals than in reality, are likely to continue their pursuit with a bullet wound in them. Assuming they don't run when they notice you're armed to begin with (even if they're armed too, it's still a risk), if they get tagged with a bullet most are going to retreat if possible. They're not solidiers trying to take an objective at all costs - they're thugs who want easy pickings. And if they do keep coming, at a minimum they're wounded. I really have no issue carrying just about anything centerfire above a .25ACP - my normal carry gun is a .380ACP and I usually carry regular old WWB in it. My nightstand gun is a .38 Special revolver that is loaded up with standard 158gr flat points.
With that in mind, I'd recommend finding a .38 Special load that your wife can fire comfortably and accurately. If she needs to use it, I'm sure the criminals won't be measuring ballistics data.
weregunner
Member
The wife can handle anything that has a JHP or a hollowpoint that was recommended in my post. Recoil for any of them will be lower or about the same for the wadcutters.
Why not use proven hollowpoint designs when they are there to be had and get better wounding profiles over wadcutters.
ALL factors have to be considered.
There is also no TYPICAL bad guy or how they will behave after a criminal is shot.
No,they may not be on hard core drugs, but they can be anything form bullet sponges to wimps. You'll bet your life or someone elses on what you think might happen? Figure on other factors folks or it will get you or can get you killed or crippled for life.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=9004.0
In the links are the factors for criminals and the defenders.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=9004.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6046.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=3266.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1603.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=797.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=9030.msg92921#msg92921
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1926.msg13962#msg13962
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=20777.msg243509#msg243509
Oh,yes. There is this for info purposes as well:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay lets go there.
There is a police officer named Teuller, who through much actual experimentation and research, found that is possible for a attacker with knife or blunt instrument to cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. This would be enough time to kill or cause grave bodily harm.
Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
The above link explains most of what was found out.
Qwiks draw™
"Da Professor?"
Forum Staff
Online
Posts: 7,920
Re: Self defence ammo for PT 1911
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2007, 08:02:05 AM » Quote Modify Remove
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually for ethical and moral reasons JHPs would be a good idea.
The same sedate ammo speed thing was brought up about the .38 Special. Both calibers have enough cases,even recent ones, where attackers were hit in the body and there was enough velocity and energy to go through other barriers after leaving the criminal's body and then went on to strike another human. Dead or gravely hurt doesn't cut it in the real world. Not if you value life. " Someone got hurt or killed.Hey.Stuff happens", is not acceptable to the norm out there.
Less likely to happen with a JHP though there may be circumstances where the hollowpoint may get clogged with cloth or debris. That's an exception and not the standard.
JHPs have been designed to deform or expand at speeds of approximately 680 to about 720 feet per second. Chuck Karwan, Dr. Topper,Sanow& Marshall, and Mas Ayoob, as well as many other accredited writers and teachers have documented this over the decades time and time again.
JHP expansion means a larger area of flesh disruption and organ function. This means there's less reason to have to shoot the perp many more times with something that doesn't expand. More humane for the receiver and for others since less shots are likely to be needed.
Flesh is elastic and snaps back together causing plenty of area to not bleed or be disrupted. JHPs disrupt more area, hence more trauma to help stop an attacker. And the idea is to stop the hostilities. Not kill. That of course may be a result though.
Take the favorite caliber and place it next to your chest. Kinda puny compared to the whole of the human body or that area in general. These need all the help they can get. JHPs offer this. Yes, I know. JHPs dont' always expand. Most of the time they do. Granted expansion is rarely like in the adverts or gun magazine pics.
Then there's the fact that handguns are not powerful at all. Rifles and shotguns do a much better job in those departments. So do crew served weapons and bigger.
Handguns are carried for convience. Weight,size,shape, and other factors make the handgun to be carried when the other more powerful weapons cannot.
History is full of even the failures of the .45 Colt or other calibers. Not going to start a caliber war here. There's all kinds of anecdotal stories and evidence that go on forever for all the calibers.
Suffice to say the history abounds with fanatical enemies who were not and will not be impressed by caliber or hitting power of handguns. Mahdists, Jihadists,Fuzzie Wuzzies,
Zulus, Japanese WWII troops, Chinese troops(Korean War), and a host of other recorded peoples were not impressed with handgun or rifle fire of any kind. They were able to stay up and running in way to many occurences,taking many rounds of rifle/pistol fire/shotgun fire, and going on to kill or gravely hurt many others before expiring. While these are fanatical attackers the same can and does happen, all to frequently with criminals for a plethora of reasons.
Adrenaline dump, hard core drugs, alcohol, or a "man on a mission" mindset are all reasons an attacker can be hard or near impossible to stop. There might even be a combination of all the above can enter into the equation on a case by case basis.
Even our troops are telling of terrorists who take many .223 rounds and keep coming.
We can not know the mindset or all the varibles in each case. Attacker may take a scratch, go into shock and even die. Or go on to do major damage. Matix and Plaxco of the Miami Massacre infamy come to mind.
So it behooves one to have the proper ammo to humanely stop an attack that does a good job of limiting possible over penetration for ethical and moral purposes.
People who do not believe in the sanctity of life and protect it should not be carrying guns.
There are properly designed JHPs that give enough penetration of a body under just about all circumstances. That's what they were designed in part to do. Newer JHPs of the last few decades stay together in one piece and penetrate further and wound more area than earlier generations of JHP. Proper ammo for the circumstances at hand on a case by case basis.
Common sense and our consciences tell us to educate ourselves on what each type,brand,or kind of ammo we will use and what it will really do. Then make an informed decision. Our lives and those of others depend on it.
For those who go with ball ammo, this is not a condemnation of you. Just be aware of possible consequences of what the results can or will be. You cannot know how,when,where, under what circumstances, and the results of an actual attack and what it's aftermath will be. We think we might know, but cannot say with any certainty what. We cannot see or predict the future.
Plan, we can do for most circumstances. The rest.........well....?
Crystal ball is in for it's 100,000 picture overhaul and Tarot cards have too much ketchup on them, and the Amazing 8 ball is at the cleaners.
As for .380 ACP there is this.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6304.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=39339.0
There is also this.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=7545.msg72881#msg72881
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=7345.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1926.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=4920.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1603.0
There are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
This has been all documented by Mas Ayoob, Chuck Karwan, Marshall & Sanow, and many others who are credentialed for this kind of thing. That includes Medical Examiners, pathologists, and many other credentialed people.
Other sources including Gun Digest Books,5th and 6th Combat Hangunnery are also in the links.
So yes, ballistics do matter. Especially internal ballistics.
Why not use proven hollowpoint designs when they are there to be had and get better wounding profiles over wadcutters.
ALL factors have to be considered.
There is also no TYPICAL bad guy or how they will behave after a criminal is shot.
No,they may not be on hard core drugs, but they can be anything form bullet sponges to wimps. You'll bet your life or someone elses on what you think might happen? Figure on other factors folks or it will get you or can get you killed or crippled for life.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=9004.0
In the links are the factors for criminals and the defenders.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=9004.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6046.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=3266.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1603.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=797.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=9030.msg92921#msg92921
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1926.msg13962#msg13962
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=20777.msg243509#msg243509
Oh,yes. There is this for info purposes as well:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay lets go there.
There is a police officer named Teuller, who through much actual experimentation and research, found that is possible for a attacker with knife or blunt instrument to cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. This would be enough time to kill or cause grave bodily harm.
Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
The above link explains most of what was found out.
Qwiks draw™
"Da Professor?"
Forum Staff
Online
Posts: 7,920
Re: Self defence ammo for PT 1911
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2007, 08:02:05 AM » Quote Modify Remove
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually for ethical and moral reasons JHPs would be a good idea.
The same sedate ammo speed thing was brought up about the .38 Special. Both calibers have enough cases,even recent ones, where attackers were hit in the body and there was enough velocity and energy to go through other barriers after leaving the criminal's body and then went on to strike another human. Dead or gravely hurt doesn't cut it in the real world. Not if you value life. " Someone got hurt or killed.Hey.Stuff happens", is not acceptable to the norm out there.
Less likely to happen with a JHP though there may be circumstances where the hollowpoint may get clogged with cloth or debris. That's an exception and not the standard.
JHPs have been designed to deform or expand at speeds of approximately 680 to about 720 feet per second. Chuck Karwan, Dr. Topper,Sanow& Marshall, and Mas Ayoob, as well as many other accredited writers and teachers have documented this over the decades time and time again.
JHP expansion means a larger area of flesh disruption and organ function. This means there's less reason to have to shoot the perp many more times with something that doesn't expand. More humane for the receiver and for others since less shots are likely to be needed.
Flesh is elastic and snaps back together causing plenty of area to not bleed or be disrupted. JHPs disrupt more area, hence more trauma to help stop an attacker. And the idea is to stop the hostilities. Not kill. That of course may be a result though.
Take the favorite caliber and place it next to your chest. Kinda puny compared to the whole of the human body or that area in general. These need all the help they can get. JHPs offer this. Yes, I know. JHPs dont' always expand. Most of the time they do. Granted expansion is rarely like in the adverts or gun magazine pics.
Then there's the fact that handguns are not powerful at all. Rifles and shotguns do a much better job in those departments. So do crew served weapons and bigger.
Handguns are carried for convience. Weight,size,shape, and other factors make the handgun to be carried when the other more powerful weapons cannot.
History is full of even the failures of the .45 Colt or other calibers. Not going to start a caliber war here. There's all kinds of anecdotal stories and evidence that go on forever for all the calibers.
Suffice to say the history abounds with fanatical enemies who were not and will not be impressed by caliber or hitting power of handguns. Mahdists, Jihadists,Fuzzie Wuzzies,
Zulus, Japanese WWII troops, Chinese troops(Korean War), and a host of other recorded peoples were not impressed with handgun or rifle fire of any kind. They were able to stay up and running in way to many occurences,taking many rounds of rifle/pistol fire/shotgun fire, and going on to kill or gravely hurt many others before expiring. While these are fanatical attackers the same can and does happen, all to frequently with criminals for a plethora of reasons.
Adrenaline dump, hard core drugs, alcohol, or a "man on a mission" mindset are all reasons an attacker can be hard or near impossible to stop. There might even be a combination of all the above can enter into the equation on a case by case basis.
Even our troops are telling of terrorists who take many .223 rounds and keep coming.
We can not know the mindset or all the varibles in each case. Attacker may take a scratch, go into shock and even die. Or go on to do major damage. Matix and Plaxco of the Miami Massacre infamy come to mind.
So it behooves one to have the proper ammo to humanely stop an attack that does a good job of limiting possible over penetration for ethical and moral purposes.
People who do not believe in the sanctity of life and protect it should not be carrying guns.
There are properly designed JHPs that give enough penetration of a body under just about all circumstances. That's what they were designed in part to do. Newer JHPs of the last few decades stay together in one piece and penetrate further and wound more area than earlier generations of JHP. Proper ammo for the circumstances at hand on a case by case basis.
Common sense and our consciences tell us to educate ourselves on what each type,brand,or kind of ammo we will use and what it will really do. Then make an informed decision. Our lives and those of others depend on it.
For those who go with ball ammo, this is not a condemnation of you. Just be aware of possible consequences of what the results can or will be. You cannot know how,when,where, under what circumstances, and the results of an actual attack and what it's aftermath will be. We think we might know, but cannot say with any certainty what. We cannot see or predict the future.
Plan, we can do for most circumstances. The rest.........well....?
Crystal ball is in for it's 100,000 picture overhaul and Tarot cards have too much ketchup on them, and the Amazing 8 ball is at the cleaners.
As for .380 ACP there is this.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6304.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=39339.0
There is also this.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=7545.msg72881#msg72881
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=7345.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1926.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=4920.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1603.0
There are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
This has been all documented by Mas Ayoob, Chuck Karwan, Marshall & Sanow, and many others who are credentialed for this kind of thing. That includes Medical Examiners, pathologists, and many other credentialed people.
Other sources including Gun Digest Books,5th and 6th Combat Hangunnery are also in the links.
So yes, ballistics do matter. Especially internal ballistics.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
I don't think you understand what you posted. IMHO, that comes from a very superficial reading of the data with out an understanding of the underlying principles.
In short, your post reads like the teacher in Charlie Brown's cartoon - wah, wahwah, wah, wah, wah....
Part of the after action review of the Miami FBI shootout indicated that 12 inches (IIRC) of penetration was the minimum. As you posted, two of the .38 loads do not meet that standard and the 158 gr LRN both kicks harder (have you ever fired a full wadcutter?) and is much less disruptive on tissue than a full wadcutter. Once again, if you don't understand or have real world knowledge of the subject, quoting others and other web sites does not prove anything.
Also quoting anyone who uses Marshall and Sanow as a reference should be a huge indicator that the author has little critical thinking skills.
sixgunner455
Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
- Messages
- 3,052
She should use the .22 until and unless she can work up to a load in the .38. Wadcutters are fine, if that's what she can handle. .22 is fine, if that's what she can handle.
weregunner
Member
First of all there was this included.
Quote:I find these not bad to shoot but wonder if the light grain is a problem in a SD tuation out of the two which would you recommend the lead ball round nose 158 gr or the 95gr +p gr schp. End of quote
That means self defense load.
Provided was data for rounds that can be used for practice or for defense that are light weight, but will not kick hard.
I also know that lrn ammo does not do well in defense issues, but is a good round for practice if it can be handled.
I do have a good working knowledge about ballistics and read the best in the business. That includes Mas Ayoob who has a lot of data that mirrors or is close to what Sanow and Marshalls results.
Granted, there data is not perfect, but nothing is. Being a Jello Junkie explains nothing and science cannot cover all the factors/variables that go into, tht includes the mind set and the physical conditions of the perp/s.
What I have in the links is what is real and known to be fact. That inludes experience by M.E.s and others who do the actual autopsies and record the data on what actually happens to the deceased and what the bullet actually did.
1986 Massacre was blamed solely on the ammo when it was much more than that. That included bad tactics, not more powerful arms (rifles) that the agents could have carried, and many other factors.
This is not to disparage the agents as they were brave men in a bad situation and circumstances.
I've shot every thing under the sun as far as bullet type goes.
Mas Ayoob and others who are in the know do not endorse the wadcutters if there are good LSWCHP or JHPs out there for defense.
Wadcutters are recommended for women it is true if nothing else is out there and they have recoil handling problems. However the Nyclad 125gr. standard pressure and the 110 standard pressure JHPs cover that, so there is little need for the wadcutter for use as a defense round.
Nyclads will expand out of a snub revolver barrel.
The JHPs of today are much better than the old ones. They will penetrate deeper than the old ones and hold together,expand and cause tissue destruction.
The data in the links is from the most knowledgable in the business and the data support what I have said. Not because I have said it, but because it is the truth.
Sorry you think that support data (actual evidence) in the form of the links from the people in the know is not considered significant.
I just backed up what I put forth and said. I presented full evidence.
The DEA, Border Patrol, and other goverment police agencies have other criterea that is much different than the F.B.I. does. Those are stringent and common sense criterea. Do you consider the other goverment agencies' criterea as false or heresay? Better have something to replace their criterea that covers everything and that shows their criterea is totally flawed. If not then you've got trouble.
F.B.I. criterea are not the holy grail of criterea. It cannot be.
Yes, the wadcutters can be for practice or defense. Granted.
There are 130gr.-132gr. FMJ that move at sedate speeds that are cheaper to use for practice.
Rolling your own rounds for practice is fine. Using them for self defense is not a good idea.
Mas Ayoob has documented that thoroughly.
If the wadcutters make good practice rounds, great. Go for it.
Things the OP said were somewhat run together so I took what he said and ran with it the way I saw it.
He did mention +P at that.
That is a " harsh" round compared to some standard pressure rounds.
If it was just 95gr. bullets for practice, fine. But what the OP wrote could be interpertations. Could be that happened. If so, no problem. Now I understand.
Let's let it lay at that.
Quote:I find these not bad to shoot but wonder if the light grain is a problem in a SD tuation out of the two which would you recommend the lead ball round nose 158 gr or the 95gr +p gr schp. End of quote
That means self defense load.
Provided was data for rounds that can be used for practice or for defense that are light weight, but will not kick hard.
I also know that lrn ammo does not do well in defense issues, but is a good round for practice if it can be handled.
I do have a good working knowledge about ballistics and read the best in the business. That includes Mas Ayoob who has a lot of data that mirrors or is close to what Sanow and Marshalls results.
Granted, there data is not perfect, but nothing is. Being a Jello Junkie explains nothing and science cannot cover all the factors/variables that go into, tht includes the mind set and the physical conditions of the perp/s.
What I have in the links is what is real and known to be fact. That inludes experience by M.E.s and others who do the actual autopsies and record the data on what actually happens to the deceased and what the bullet actually did.
1986 Massacre was blamed solely on the ammo when it was much more than that. That included bad tactics, not more powerful arms (rifles) that the agents could have carried, and many other factors.
This is not to disparage the agents as they were brave men in a bad situation and circumstances.
I've shot every thing under the sun as far as bullet type goes.
Mas Ayoob and others who are in the know do not endorse the wadcutters if there are good LSWCHP or JHPs out there for defense.
Wadcutters are recommended for women it is true if nothing else is out there and they have recoil handling problems. However the Nyclad 125gr. standard pressure and the 110 standard pressure JHPs cover that, so there is little need for the wadcutter for use as a defense round.
Nyclads will expand out of a snub revolver barrel.
The JHPs of today are much better than the old ones. They will penetrate deeper than the old ones and hold together,expand and cause tissue destruction.
The data in the links is from the most knowledgable in the business and the data support what I have said. Not because I have said it, but because it is the truth.
Sorry you think that support data (actual evidence) in the form of the links from the people in the know is not considered significant.
I just backed up what I put forth and said. I presented full evidence.
The DEA, Border Patrol, and other goverment police agencies have other criterea that is much different than the F.B.I. does. Those are stringent and common sense criterea. Do you consider the other goverment agencies' criterea as false or heresay? Better have something to replace their criterea that covers everything and that shows their criterea is totally flawed. If not then you've got trouble.
F.B.I. criterea are not the holy grail of criterea. It cannot be.
Yes, the wadcutters can be for practice or defense. Granted.
There are 130gr.-132gr. FMJ that move at sedate speeds that are cheaper to use for practice.
Rolling your own rounds for practice is fine. Using them for self defense is not a good idea.
Mas Ayoob has documented that thoroughly.
If the wadcutters make good practice rounds, great. Go for it.
Things the OP said were somewhat run together so I took what he said and ran with it the way I saw it.
He did mention +P at that.
That is a " harsh" round compared to some standard pressure rounds.
If it was just 95gr. bullets for practice, fine. But what the OP wrote could be interpertations. Could be that happened. If so, no problem. Now I understand.
Let's let it lay at that.
weregunner
Member
www.handgunsmag.com/.../HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/
38 Special 125 grain Federal Nyclad JHP, 5/1/90:
Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity Bare Gelatin
Clothed Gelatin
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13
3" 897 fps 10.85" 0.60" 14.55" 0.45"
There is a case for the wadcutter for use as a defense round to a point,granted.
It was pointed out that the wadcutter stays in the body.
However the Nyclad still sticks out as a better choice IMHO.
According to Mas Ayoob and others in the know, the human male body average thickness was from 9-10 inches thick.
I'll stay with this.
If the wadcutter is a commercial load, no problem. If it is a home brewed round, then there is a good chance that in court it can get you into trouble.
38 Special 125 grain Federal Nyclad JHP, 5/1/90:
Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity Bare Gelatin
Clothed Gelatin
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13
3" 897 fps 10.85" 0.60" 14.55" 0.45"
There is a case for the wadcutter for use as a defense round to a point,granted.
It was pointed out that the wadcutter stays in the body.
However the Nyclad still sticks out as a better choice IMHO.
According to Mas Ayoob and others in the know, the human male body average thickness was from 9-10 inches thick.
I'll stay with this.
If the wadcutter is a commercial load, no problem. If it is a home brewed round, then there is a good chance that in court it can get you into trouble.
Cosmoline
Member
I suspect that data is very much outdated. We're not just fatter, we're bigger and fatter. I know of too many instances of HP rounds failing to stop large suspects. Including one big fellow who was shot in the arm and recently lost his suit against the officer. The round fell apart in his arm. I know of another shooting in Fairbanks where a .357 Sig. HP round hit a fat man in the gut and simply skirted around his belly fat, exiting and giving him only a superficial flesh wound. And of course at handgun velocities expansion through clothes and fat is not very reliable. These are very different from RIFLE hollow points. For these and other reasons, reconsidering the conventional wisdom of very small, high vel HP's for CCW handguns is a good idea.
The factory 158 grain .38 special soft lead wadcutters have very little recoil compared with any other factory load I know of. Yet they also penetrate very well--certainly better than small hollow points. Overpenetration is not a big issue with a small .38. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely. We're not talking about a rifle or even a carbine here. Plus the poor BC of a wadcutter makes it unlikely to fly off into parts unknown.
It's not ideal, but then neither is any other handgun cartridge. They're all compromises. In this case she would be compromising some power in order to have better control. Given the solid merits and low recoil of the wadcutter round, it's a good choice for her to try.
Another option is of course to increase the size of the firearm, which decreases recoil.
FYI, here is data for the standard 148 wadcutter:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38wadcutter.html
Not this nonsense again. There are about two dozen threads on this issue already.
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Smaug
Member
Do we even know if snow's wife can handle a 38 Special? He mentioned she has nerve damage and is recoil sensitive in the extreme. If the recoil sensitivity is from the nerve damage, then maybe she just cannot handle a 38 revolver AT ALL.
Snow, before you spend too much time, effort, and money trying to find the perfect 38 load, get a typical 38 Special load (Winchester White Box) and see if she can handle it. The answer may be "No" and there is no point in debating penetration and ballistic any further.
Let me tell you how it went with my wife: She shot my 22 (Ruger Mk. II) and was comfortable with it. She wanted one for her nightstand. I told her: "That's not powerful enough for self defense. We need to at least get you a 38 or 9mm."
So she looked at 38s, discovered they were in revolvers only, and said: "No thanks, I don't like revolvers, they're Old Man Guns." You see? even with guns, there is some fashion involved. At least with my wife.
Right. Onto 9 mm. She looked at a load of them. We tried them out in the gun stores, and on most of them, she could not rack the slide. I'm sure with exercise and practice and the right technique, she could do it. So she got a Hi-Power. (great gun, by the way) With a bit of practice, she can rack the side properly. Then, she shoots it. At first, she was limp-wristing and causing jams. Then, she got that fixed. Most of the time.
Then, her career started and she wasn't practicing at all. She can no longer rack the slide reliably due to rheumatoid arthritis. (RA) She has resigned herself to a revolver, but was not happy about it. Due to the RA, it hurts her fingers to apply too much pressure to anything, such as squeezing a heavy trigger. She can thumb the hammer each time, but then, it is not such an ideal defense gun.
In the end, I did some soul searching. With the 22, she is:
So why was I trying so hard to force her into 38s and 9s?
I did some more reading on the effectiveness of 22s and found that they are not as bad as some would have you think. As shown above, they are 20% less effective as one-shot stoppers as the best 38s. But she can fire them with confidence, and AT LEAST twice as fast as a 38 or 9mm. They never jam on her, even when she limp-wrists.
For her, with her infrequent practice and weak upper body strength, the 22 pistol is simply the best option.
Remember to include this pragmatic viewpoint. Think realisticly. Is she the type who is going to practice? Is she going to be so afraid of the recoil that she closes her eyes and flinches it down into the floor? Maybe she's tougher than my wife and these aren't concerns, but then again, maybe not.
Regarding the reliability of centerfire ammo vs. rimfire, I've never had a misfire with a good gun and good ammo.
Kate is picking up her Buck Mark (target AND self defense gun) this weekend. I'm going to buy her some Remington Viper ammo and try it out. It is flat point, hyper velocity, plated. Should be a good load all around. If it turns out to be something less than 100% reliable, we'll go to the high quality Winchester Super-X HV solid point in the gray box or good old CCI MiniMag, solid point.
Snow, before you spend too much time, effort, and money trying to find the perfect 38 load, get a typical 38 Special load (Winchester White Box) and see if she can handle it. The answer may be "No" and there is no point in debating penetration and ballistic any further.
Let me tell you how it went with my wife: She shot my 22 (Ruger Mk. II) and was comfortable with it. She wanted one for her nightstand. I told her: "That's not powerful enough for self defense. We need to at least get you a 38 or 9mm."
So she looked at 38s, discovered they were in revolvers only, and said: "No thanks, I don't like revolvers, they're Old Man Guns." You see? even with guns, there is some fashion involved. At least with my wife.
Right. Onto 9 mm. She looked at a load of them. We tried them out in the gun stores, and on most of them, she could not rack the slide. I'm sure with exercise and practice and the right technique, she could do it. So she got a Hi-Power. (great gun, by the way) With a bit of practice, she can rack the side properly. Then, she shoots it. At first, she was limp-wristing and causing jams. Then, she got that fixed. Most of the time.
Then, her career started and she wasn't practicing at all. She can no longer rack the slide reliably due to rheumatoid arthritis. (RA) She has resigned herself to a revolver, but was not happy about it. Due to the RA, it hurts her fingers to apply too much pressure to anything, such as squeezing a heavy trigger. She can thumb the hammer each time, but then, it is not such an ideal defense gun.
In the end, I did some soul searching. With the 22, she is:
- Confident
- Accurate
- Comfortable
- Reliable
So why was I trying so hard to force her into 38s and 9s?
I did some more reading on the effectiveness of 22s and found that they are not as bad as some would have you think. As shown above, they are 20% less effective as one-shot stoppers as the best 38s. But she can fire them with confidence, and AT LEAST twice as fast as a 38 or 9mm. They never jam on her, even when she limp-wrists.
For her, with her infrequent practice and weak upper body strength, the 22 pistol is simply the best option.
Remember to include this pragmatic viewpoint. Think realisticly. Is she the type who is going to practice? Is she going to be so afraid of the recoil that she closes her eyes and flinches it down into the floor? Maybe she's tougher than my wife and these aren't concerns, but then again, maybe not.
Regarding the reliability of centerfire ammo vs. rimfire, I've never had a misfire with a good gun and good ammo.
Kate is picking up her Buck Mark (target AND self defense gun) this weekend. I'm going to buy her some Remington Viper ammo and try it out. It is flat point, hyper velocity, plated. Should be a good load all around. If it turns out to be something less than 100% reliable, we'll go to the high quality Winchester Super-X HV solid point in the gray box or good old CCI MiniMag, solid point.
weregunner
Member
First off this is the wife's pick and initially the go with the "other calibers" should be looked at if the .38 Special is too much. This is her decision, what fits her abilities and her needs.
You're right Smaug about the .22lrf being recommended for those who are recoil sensitive or of have health handicaps that keep them from being able to use other calibers. Those are excellent points you made!
And no, the information is not outdated.
The second thing is the cases I sighted were documented and not individual cases by anecdote.
I can find numerous cases where any of the calibers have not put a criminal down for the count. That includes the vaunted .45 ACP with double taps or single shots in the boiler room. Two cases with FMJ at that planted in the perp's chest.
Even if the info brought was a few years old Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Hydra-shok, and other very well known bullet types or brands still are with us after a decade or two and doing well. So the info is still valid.
These are not the old Sierra or Nosler rounds and some of the older designs still work well and did back then.
The new bonded bullets are working well,too.
Let the lady make informed choices. If need be let her get instruction from NRA or NSSF women only basic classes or a accredited basic shooting course, do her own research, and get a good rounded basic knowledge before she makes the choice as to what is right for her.
The women only classes normally can be found through the local gun stores, ranges, and gun clubs. If not the NRA and NSSF have how to get started and who to contact.
These classes let the women become exposed to most of the various firearm types,teaches them safety and in a relaxed atmosphere.
Could be the .22lrf is all she'll ever be able to or want to handle. It happens. Even for some men as the credentialed been there done that gun writer/ instructors have pointed out in the media from time to time.
If she learns the basics, gets some good practice with a good mentor,then maybe she'll move up to the larger calibers.
If not the .22lrf is the way to go. First rule is to have a gun. One that the person can be proficient with. That's been stated already.
Let her make the choice. Not us males.
You're right Smaug about the .22lrf being recommended for those who are recoil sensitive or of have health handicaps that keep them from being able to use other calibers. Those are excellent points you made!
And no, the information is not outdated.
The second thing is the cases I sighted were documented and not individual cases by anecdote.
I can find numerous cases where any of the calibers have not put a criminal down for the count. That includes the vaunted .45 ACP with double taps or single shots in the boiler room. Two cases with FMJ at that planted in the perp's chest.
Even if the info brought was a few years old Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Hydra-shok, and other very well known bullet types or brands still are with us after a decade or two and doing well. So the info is still valid.
These are not the old Sierra or Nosler rounds and some of the older designs still work well and did back then.
The new bonded bullets are working well,too.
Let the lady make informed choices. If need be let her get instruction from NRA or NSSF women only basic classes or a accredited basic shooting course, do her own research, and get a good rounded basic knowledge before she makes the choice as to what is right for her.
The women only classes normally can be found through the local gun stores, ranges, and gun clubs. If not the NRA and NSSF have how to get started and who to contact.
These classes let the women become exposed to most of the various firearm types,teaches them safety and in a relaxed atmosphere.
Could be the .22lrf is all she'll ever be able to or want to handle. It happens. Even for some men as the credentialed been there done that gun writer/ instructors have pointed out in the media from time to time.
If she learns the basics, gets some good practice with a good mentor,then maybe she'll move up to the larger calibers.
If not the .22lrf is the way to go. First rule is to have a gun. One that the person can be proficient with. That's been stated already.
Let her make the choice. Not us males.
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mr.trooper
Member
What about a K-frame .22 mag, like the 48 Classic?
According to the online calculator, It would only have about 1/3 the free recoil energy of the equivalent 38spl model (M15).
More power than .22LR, but still with very low recoil.
Again, as others have stated, don't force anything on her. She has a LOT more options that you may have though, and she should consider them all before making her own decision.
According to the online calculator, It would only have about 1/3 the free recoil energy of the equivalent 38spl model (M15).
More power than .22LR, but still with very low recoil.
Again, as others have stated, don't force anything on her. She has a LOT more options that you may have though, and she should consider them all before making her own decision.
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