Ammo End State - Beyond M855

Status
Not open for further replies.
A good, but unfortunate explanation I read on another forum...

Seems that "intended use" is not really relevant to the verbiage and "armor piercing" is defined by the metal content of the projectile and NOT the "performance" of the projectile. The important factors are the metal content of the bullet and whether it "may be used" in a pistol.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=2082838

"When LEOPA was finally passed by Congress in 1986, however, the final bill did not include a performance-based standard, or limit the definition of armor piercing ammunition to ammunition “designed” for use in a handgun. Instead, the definition has two alternatives: the first focuses on the composition of the ammunition, and whether it “may be used” in a handgun; the second focuses on size, jacket weight, and the design and intention for the ammunition. Specifically, the definition of “armor piercing ammunition” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(17)

Although the design and intention for the ammunition is relevant to the second alternative definition, the first alternative contains no such limitation. In fact, during the final vote on LEOPA, Congress specifically rejected an amendment that would have limited the definition of armor piercing ammunition to ammunition “intended” to be used in a handgun, thereby exempting “standard rifle ammunition.”1 As a result, rather than limiting the definition to the manufacturer’s “design” or “intent,” the final bill passed by Congress clearly expanded the definition of armor piercing ammunition to include any ammunition containing the specified metal content “which may be used in a handgun.” This definition has remained unchanged since enactment of LEOPA in 1986.

In adopting a definition of armor piercing ammunition that included ammunition that “may” be used in a handgun, 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B)(i), Congress expressly sought to protect law enforcement officers from the effects of a projectile that, although originally intended for a rifle, could be fired from a handgun. Accordingly, under the first of the two alternative definitions enacted into law, all projectiles meeting the metal content criteria that “may be used in a handgun” are defined as “armor piercing ammunition” under the statute."

I have no doubt this is only the beginning of the BATFE administrative ammo bans.

In the mean time, can't hurt to sign here...

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj

In addition to writing BATFE and our congressional representatives. We should not be lazy and apathetic about this.
 
Last edited:
Rogerjames, the issue is that M855/SS109 was improperly classified as AP in the first place. As it's core is 2/3 lead, it does not meet the statutory definition of AP. 5.56 AP is M995, which has a pure tungsten core.
 
Rogerjames, the issue is that M855/SS109 was improperly classified as AP in the first place. As it's core is 2/3 lead, it does not meet the statutory definition of AP. 5.56 AP is M995, which has a pure tungsten core.


Ahh haa, didn't realize that. Well that certainly changes things. Thanks for the info.
 
It's a tricky point -- or at least will be if this story gets any media traction.

855 is not armor piercing ammunition by statute or by military definition, but it was adopted as the NATO standard to better penetrate armor. Try getting even a sympathetic reporter to explain that in a 2 minute TV news bit in a way that doesn't leave viewers wondering if Ron Burgundy or whoever on TV isn't off his meds.
 
As long as this ammo has been out, what precipitated them finding now that it should be banned?

Let's remember that the "armor piercing" restriction applies only to handgun ammunition. I blame the proliferation of AR-15 type "handguns." The AR-15 was never intended to be a handgun. This configuration resulted from the desire to have an SBR without the NFA paperwork. So it's a matter of "what goes around, comes around."
 
It's a tricky point -- or at least will be if this story gets any media traction.

855 is not armor piercing ammunition by statute or by military definition, but it was adopted as the NATO standard to better penetrate armor. Try getting even a sympathetic reporter to explain that in a 2 minute TV news bit in a way that doesn't leave viewers wondering if Ron Burgundy or whoever on TV isn't off his meds.

Very easy.

You simply explain that 855 is an enhanced penetration ball round, you show a cross section of M193, M855 and M995, and then you show a steel plate that has a splatter, a small crater and a through hole respective to each round.

If you have time after that, you point out that rifles are barely used in crime anyway, and that any rifle round will defeat soft armor, as well as that M855 does not penetrate level 4 trauma plates any better than any other round.

Let's remember that the "armor piercing" restriction applies only to handgun ammunition. I blame the proliferation of AR-15 type "handguns." The AR-15 was never intended to be a handgun. This configuration resulted from the desire to have an SBR without the NFA paperwork. So it's a matter of "what goes around, comes around."

A disingenuous, ATF-sympathetic, blame-the-victim POV.

Once again, SS109 is not statutorily AP to begin with. That classification by ATF was a faux pas that resulted in the immediate "sporting exemption", rather than a retraction of the classification. Whether you agree with the statutes on AP ammo or not is irrelevant; they exist as a federal law. ATF ignored them, though, as they often do.

Also remember that not all states permit SBR or other NFA items, and not all CLEOs will sign off on it.
 
Granted, I'm not real happy about the situation.

I keep asking myself the same question though, AlexanderA.

We did kinda give them the gas to pour on the fire for this one. Thats a large part of what they're standing on in this "judgement", and thats how its being relayed to the populace.
 
So it's just like "that depends on what the definition is "is" "is".;) Or maybe "what "armor" is. HSO, thank you for your helping me understand this madness. I feel better now.
 
Last edited:
You know I am getting tired of people referring to the AR15 pistol as a handgun because it really isn't what I would consider a handgun. It should probably fall into the same class as the PS90 as they are about the same size. Funny how one can be shouldered and be just fine and yet another can't without a stamp when they are effectively the same length almost. I guess my point is I do t think anyone is goin to be carrying around an AR pistol and really concealing it while using AP rounds because it really isn't as easily carried as a freaking actual handgun. This BS is just ridiculous.

These laws are so stupid. I think it's absolutely ludicrous that I can go buy a pistol and walk out of the store in a couple of hours or less yet to buy a SBR that is bigger and harder to do anything with I have to pay $200, go through a process and get it 9 months later. Which do you think is used in crime more? Absolutely stupid. None of this has to do with AP rounds or protecting officers at all. It's simply another way for them to pick away at your rights. It's about control, nothing less.

On some points, I agree it's not a big deal but it is strictly because of the language and the power granted here. Off soapbox.
 
I blame the proliferation of AR-15 type "handguns." The AR-15 was never intended to be a handgun. This configuration resulted from the desire to have an SBR without the NFA paperwork. So it's a matter of "what goes around, comes around."

The ATF was never intended to be a law enforcement agency on it's own. It's origins date back to 1886 as a part of Internal Revenue. It was separated in 1972 to handle firearms because of the GCA of '68.

What goes around is that government bureaucracies always continue to grow and encompass more authority. Whether a gun was "intended" from the beginning makes little difference, the Thompson Contender is both a handgun and a rifle, and predates the existence of the AR pistol by quite a margin. Their first product was announced in 1967, and the ability to fire rifle cartridges has always been one of the features.

The Remington XP 100 predates that, it was first offered in 1963 - a bolt action rifle cartridge handgun.

You could shoot real AP ammunition in them years before the ATF was commissioned to regulate it. It was not a threat to society, and still isn't.

The presence of the AR pistol on the market is actually in PROTEST to the stranglehold of regulations reqarding the use of SBR's as outlined in the '34 NFA. None of the elements of that law were a major threat to society, nor were there any major issues with the items regulated. They simply were not a significant source of crime. What was significant was the attitude of those who were enacting it. They were imposing a financial burden on the common taxpayer to keep those items out of their hands - it was a time of extreme economic failure and the working man was taking the brunt of the collapse. Simultaneously both Fascism and Communism were making serious inroads into national governance - which threatened the security of those in power here.

Better to disarm them early than try to disarm them after an uprising. The NFA was simply a measure of prior restraint to prevent insurrection in America. There was plenty of it, banks were being robbed, criminal gangs were controlling the liquor trade in defiance of the law, and the average citizen wasn't too happy with a government that failed to ensure their economic security.

NONE of that was done with any knowledge that the AR pistol would even be invented. And there will ALWAYS be resistance to overbearing government control of the average persons life.

It's why it's so easily said, if you don't like the gun laws in your state, just move. Our forefathers didn't like the gun laws in their home country - you couldn't have one in many cases, and if the government gave you one, your survival rate was diminished while you pursued their adventures against their neighbors. Whether you agreed or not.

Hence the all volunteer army of today. We dislike conscript service so much we abandoned it, a direct result of our heritage from the home country.

It's NOT about the AR pistol, it's about the ATF growing by leaps and bounds in the last 40 years to exert authority, and now they are doing it without the public's approval. They have gone beyond the bounds of acceptable governance, and that will either be addressed by our representatives - or left to fester until a flash point is reached.

We are a long suffering people, but if you tax us too heavily we react. That is EXACTLY the reason this nation exists. Why we tolerate the NFA and ATF at all is only a measure of how much our citizens are ignorant of what they have lost. Like frogs in a pot of water on the stove, they are all warm and cozy for the moment.
 
Well said Tirod, well said. I think people are too scared to really stand up to anything these days as well as being ignorant of what they have already lost. All one has to do is go back and read the Declaration of Independence. The grievances listed of past times are not all that different from the same grievances people experience today. So, why no pushback? I am afraid to say that there will never be a flashpoint. As the government takes real hold of the education system you will continue to see generation after generation trusting and relying on the government more and more to the point that a generation from now will have no idea what real freedom is, but because of their ignorance they won't realize how bad they actually have it either. Its a sad state of affairs. In order to make the pushback needed we need a large organized group that share the same sentiments as we do. As a group we have a hard time organizing anything and therefore have already lost the battle unless some drastic changes occur.
 
Rogerjames, the issue is that M855/SS109 was improperly classified as AP in the first place. As it's core is 2/3 lead, it does not meet the statutory definition of AP. 5.56 AP is M995, which has a pure tungsten core.

I have a feeling they will do whatever they want. 7N6 all over again, the fact it had a two-part core and was standard ball ammo didn't stop them there.
 
I have a feeling they will do whatever they want. 7N6 all over again, the fact it had a two-part core and was standard ball ammo didn't stop them there.

Oh, it's already done. The probability of them reversing course is somewhere between really, really slim and none.

This commentary period is about how to best implement the transition, not considering banning M855:

ATF is specifically soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety

p. 15

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf
 
it was adopted as the NATO standard to better penetrate armor
No, it was adopted as the NATO standard to give better long range performance than M193, which loses velocity too quickly to penetrate a tin-pot helmet at 600 meters. M193 (or heck, 55-grain softpoints) will darn sure penetrate a metal helmet at less than 600, but SS109's greater mass and more efficient shape maintains its energy better at range. At closer range, the difference is moot. The difference is also moot with regard to LE armor penetration; NIJ Level IIIA won't stop a centerfire rifle round, and NIJ Level III will stop non-AP M855 just like it stops M193 and such.

If you look at a cutaway, the steel cap is not even pointed in most variants of M855.

SS109_resize.jpg

It appears to me to be mostly there to maintain the integrity of the core, and to push the center of gravity back compared to an all-lead round (a large air pocket up front would do the same, but then crush of the copper would decelerate the bullet smoothly on impact and reduce metal penetration).

As an aside, I also notice BATFE is also proposing a weird change to the "jacket composing >25% of the bullet mass" rule. Congress specifically exempted ammunition of .22 caliber (which is of course .221"-.225", both rimfire and centerfire) due to the fact that for a jacket of a given thickness, a smaller bullet has more jacket mass compared to core mass than a larger bullet does. BATFE has bizzarely decided that the exemption applies only to rimfires, not centerfires, even though the law makes no such distinction. That suggests that they may be intending to use the jacket-weight issue to go after more centerfire rounds (bonded core bullets, perhaps?) in the future.

As an aside, according to the FBI not a single officer was killed in 2012 or 2013 by penetration of the vest by a bullet. Not. A. Single. One.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ze_of_ammo_penetrating_vo_armor_2004-2013.xls

Only three officers have been shot through any vest with any .223 since 2004, per the same table; one death occurred in 2004, one in 2008, and one in 2011, and there is no indication that any of those involved M855 or rifle-resistant armor. During the same time period, 7 officers were murdered through their vests using deer hunting calibers (.30-30 Winchester, 7mm, .308, or .30-06), 5 were murdered through their vests using 7.62x39mm, and 385 were murdered with ordinary pistols and revolvers (almost all of which involved hits to unprotected areas).
 
My guess is that if BATFE goes through with this, it just may create enough attention to itself that may lead to a loss of unilateral power and decision making in the near future.

Exactly.

The Pres is taking the same course by basically changing immigration policy to suit his idea of what it should be. He has issued an executive order that is in direct violation of US code. Note that the ATF is part of this adm.

His latest action was blocked by the judiciary and probably will remain blocked until he is out of office.

I'm amazed at this adm's conceit and disregard for laws enacted by congress.
 
If I remember correctly from my college days, in some cases Federal Agencies, creating and enforcing their own administrative regulations, can carry the full weight of law, even though such regulations were never legislated by Congress.

In other words if it's something that falls within their jurisdiction they have the authority to do something about it if they so choose.

I'm curious about something. They are wanting to do this allegedly because M855 can be fired in a handgun. What does the exact wording of the law say about handgun or rifle ammo? The post above by rogerjames indicates that the wording was changed, but Goodlatte, Sensenbrenner and Coble seem to feel that the original wording/intent should prevail.

I've recently become aware of some info attributed to Biaggi and Moynihan, the original sponsors of the LEOPA law. It says they specifically did NOT intend for the law to apply to any rifle cartridge, even if a handgun was chambered for it. They realized that any rifle cartridge would defeat soft body armor.

This seems to have been reafrimed by Goodlatte, Sensenbrenner and Coble in 2012 in a letter to BATFE.

Posted elsewhere by DocGKR,

5.56 mm M855 and the nearly identical NATO SS109 have been around for 3 decades or so. Contrary to the false claim by BATFE, over the past 30 years handguns capable of firing M855/SS109 have been available to the public. Yet to the best of my knowledge, American LE officers are not routinely being killed by M855/SS109 fired from handguns. So why take action now, especially since it goes against the spirit of the original law?

Mcantu is on the right track; Representative Mario Biaggi and Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the original Congressional sponsors of the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act (P.L. 99-408), clearly stated that they intended and expected that ALL common ammunition originally or primarily intended for rifle use should be exempt from the bill, even if pistols were chambered for such rifle ammunition. In fact Rep Biaggi explicitly stated the, “legislation does not seek to affect in any way ammunition made originally or primarily for rifle use”.

As noted above, Senator Moynihan testified before the Senate, stating: “Let me make clear what this bill does not do. Our legislation would not limit the availability of rifle ammunition with armor-piercing capability. We recognize that soft body armor is not intended to stop high-powered rifle cartridges. Time and again, Congressman Biaggi and I have stressed that only bullets capable of penetrating body armor and designed to be fired from a handgun would be banned; rifle ammunition would not be covered.”

Likewise, Representatives Bob Goodlatte, F. James Sensenbrenner, and Howard Coble’s recent official Congressional letter of 09 April 2014 sent to Mr. B.Todd Jones, Director of BATFE again reminded the agency that the original intent of the Act was NOT to restrict ANY rifle ammunition. The Congressmen wrote: “Specific handgun ammunition originally designed to pierce body armor was banned from being manufactured or imported. It is important to point out that the bill’s sponsors in the House and Senate, Rep. Mario Biaggi and Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, intended to exempt ammunition originally designed for use in rifles, even if there were handguns on the market that technically could chamber the rifle ammunition.”

The Congressmen went on to remonstrate the BATFE stating: “Despite the clear intent of the architects of the bill, ammunition clearly designed and intended for use in rifles has been scrutinized as potentially being ‘armor piercing’ under the stature.” The letter further excoriated the BATFE for proposing bans on certain rifle ammunition against the express intent of Congress.
 
Last edited:
Here's the full definition in US code, Title 19, Sec. 921: The projectile core is at issue if it "may be used in a handgun." The jacket weight is at issue if greater than .22 cal and "designed and intended for use in a handgun." (C) defines that the US Attorney general is responsible for determining a projectile is "primarily intended" for sporting purposes.

(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
 
Changing the language of legislation on AP laws will go no where. They'd have to ban almost every rifle round in existence
Like shotguns? They're technically destructive devices. With an exemption that allows the little guy to own one. That's how they'll do rifle ammo. Then they can leisurely keep banning without stirring up too much fuss.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top