Ammo storage

[kb308]

Hey everybody, hope Saturday is going well for you guys.
If I store my ammo in military grade ammo boxes, can I then store it in a non-temp regulated place? I.e. my attic?

 

[John Joseph]

Is it cool? Is it dry?

 

[kb308]

Prob not the best idea ever, but I only have a closet otherwise.

 

[kb308]

The attic is NOT COOL.. NNOOOOOOO. North Alabama heat!

Dry other than the humidity.

 

[CapnMac]

Even in far north Alabama, under 1500-2000'msl elevation you are looking at daytime summer attic temps in a ventilated attic of over 130ºF. Pulling climate data up, looks like you have to be higher than 3000'msl elevation to be below the 120ºF. sinclyne.

Far better would be a crawlspace, which is going to run (ventilated c/s) about 7-8º less than ambient (e.g. if it's 94º, the c/s will be 86º).

Both of those values can be hugely improved by bringing them into conditioned space (not ventilated to outside)--but that's better addressed over at buildingscience.org.

No, in a closet is far better for your ammo.

Get a length of 2x12, cut two 9" long pieces off the end. Cut the remainder to fit the closet, short or long side, as seems apt. Fasten the 9" bits to the bottom of the long pit with 4 evenly spaced #3x3 1/2" screws each end.

Ammo box will fit neatly underneath, and anything piled on top doe not prevent sliding the box(es) out for use. That top makes a good place to stash shoes and the like.

 

[JohnKSa]

One simple rule for storing ammo.

If you would be comfortable living in the conditions where the ammo is stored then the ammo will be fine.

 

[Slamfire]

Do not store any gunpowder in areas which exceed 86 F as shelf life decreases exponentially.



Aged gunpowder increases in pressure. There are lots of accounts of firearms blown up with military surplus ammunition, or old ammunition. The unfortunates don't know why, lots of weird explanations come out from posters, but old gunpowder and high pressures are the most likely cause for 99.9999% of them. I am open minded enough to state that something else could be the problem for the other 0.00001% of blowup accidents that happen with old ammunition.




Throughout the Insensitive Munitions field, world wide, ammunition large and small is removed from inventory when the stabilizer reaches 20% of original content. This has a good explanation of how gunpowder deteriorates.


Ammunition Surveillance Procedures SB 742-1


https://acc.dau.mil/adl/en-US/723535/file/82862/DA PAM 742-1 22 Nov 16.pdf

Chapter 13 Propellant and Propelling Charges ,

page 13-1

WARNING

Nitrocellulose-based propellant can become thermally unstable as the age. The normal aging process of the propellants involves deterioration of the nitrocellulose with an accompanying generation of heat. At some point, the propellant may reach a state where heat is generated faster than it can be dissipated. The accumulation of heat can lead to combustion (autoignition). Chemical stabilizers are added to propellants to slow the aging process. In time, the stabilizer levels will drop to a point where the remaining effective stabilizer (RES) is not sufficient to prevent an accelerating rate of decomposition. When this point is reached, the propellant may autoigniet, with possible catastrophic results to property and life. Monitoring the stability level of each propellant lot is essential for continued safe storage.

Page 13-5 , Table 13.2 Propellant Stability Codes.

Stability Category A 0.30 or more Percent Effective Stabilizer

Acceptable stabilizer loss: safe for continued storage

C 0.29-0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Significant stabilizer loss. Lot does not represent an immediate hazard, but is approaching a potentially hazardous stability condition. Loss of stabilizer does adversely affect function in an uploaded configuration. Disposition instructions will be furnished by NAR. All stability category “C” assests on the installation must be reported in writing…

One year after becoming stability category “C” a sample of the bulk propellant lot or the bulk-packed component lot will be retested. If the lot has not deteriorated to category “D”, it will be retested each year until it has been expended, or it has deteriorated to category “D”, at which point it will be demilitarized within 60 days.

D Less than 0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Unacceptable stabilizer loss. Lots identified as stability category “D” present a potential safety hazard and are unsafe for continued storage as bulk, bulk-packed components , or as separate loading propellant chargers. Bulk propellant, bulk –packed components and separate loading propelling charges will be demilitarized within 60 days after notification of category “D” status.

This is how storage at elevated temperatures deteriorated this lot of gunpowder.


Temperature is the primary enemy of smokeless gunpowder. Smokeless gunpowder does not have an infinite shelf life. The fact that the shooting community is largely unaware of this is an example of Agnotology. "Agnotology (formerly agnatology) is the study of culturally induced ignorance or doubt, particularly the publication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology A very good question is why don't you know what you don't know?

It is my opinion that the primary teachers of the shooting community are in print magazines which always prioritize the interests of the shooting industry over that of the shooters. I consider in print gun magazine and in print gunwriters as shills for the industry. As such, it is in no one's interest to educate you, the shooting public, about things which may make you reluctant to buy. If you knew that ammunition has a shelf life, you might get picky, you may not want to pay full price for old, old ammunition. You may in fact, want a discount! HORRORS!. Or a use by date. We have it on hamburgers, pickles, milk, why not ammunition and gunpowder?

Ignorance has no positives for the individual, but it probably does for the industry. Ignorant people will get injured doing dangerous things because they don't know better. But, who are they going to sue if they don't know better?

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Slamfire's charts are very telling.

I was going to say that folks I know who have served in Afghanistan and Iraq have talked about ammo in vehicles at very high temps. The charts show that if they're using it up quickly they're ok but still at risk of damage.

Personally, I think ammo crates and cans inside the house or in a dry basement makes the most sense

 

[BSA1]

We are shooting up ammunition I brought in 1994. It has been stored in the closet of our old house and in my basement mancave, most of time in military surplus ammo cans. All of it has fired normally and is giving excellent accuracy.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I'm shooting Turkish 8mm loaded in the 30s. I don't know how well it was stored before I acquired it, but I keep it in military ammo cans in the house.
I also have an AC vent in the 9x7 room where its stored.
Avoid putting your ammo in the attic with your brain damaged brother, you wouldn't want him to play with it and hurt himself

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Avoid putting your ammo in the attic with your brain damaged brother, you wouldn't want him to play with it and hurt himself

It's worse than that, he's a better shot than me, don't want him shooting me!

 

[FL-NC]

We stored ammo in afg in 40' shipping containers. Most of it was in ammo cans. They were well over 100 in the summer and sub freezing in the winter. Not to mention wet/hot in places in Latin America, and even hotter in iraq and kuwait. We're talking small arms ammo 9mm-50 caliber, mortar rounds, antitank HEAT rounds, pyrotechnics and grenades, 40 mm, explosives and demolitions, 105 arty rounds- pretty much anything that went boom shy of aviation ordinance. We made sure cans were closed, seals were good on the containers (hopefully), and TRIED to keep everything on top of wood pallets. Never had any issues.

 

[kb308]

Thanks for all the great replies guys; I think I'm just going to pass on the attic for now due to the overwhelming heat just to be safe.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Thanks for all the great replies guys; I think I'm just going to pass on the attic for now due to the overwhelming heat just to be safe.

Wise move.
One of the pest companies, I think it's Orkin, used to run an ad about bugs in the attic and the extreme heat.
The temps in a typical attic get insanely hot.

So better safe than sorry.

One thing to mention, many attics aren't designed to store things. People add flooring to get extra storage. So unless yours was, the heavy weight of a lot of ammo could be an issue if you're trying to store large amounts.

 

[Slamfire]

We stored ammo in afg in 40' shipping containers. Most of it was in ammo cans. They were well over 100 in the summer and sub freezing in the winter. Not to mention wet/hot in places in Latin America, and even hotter in iraq and kuwait. We're talking small arms ammo 9mm-50 caliber, mortar rounds, antitank HEAT rounds, pyrotechnics and grenades, 40 mm, explosives and demolitions, 105 arty rounds- pretty much anything that went boom shy of aviation ordinance. We made sure cans were closed, seals were good on the containers (hopefully), and TRIED to keep everything on top of wood pallets. Never had any issues.

FL-NC, : There are a lot of people behind the scenes doing things that you are unaware of. The reason you did not have any issues is that a brother Soldier was doing his job and protecting you from dangerous ammunition. The Job of the Ammunition Technician is to ensure that safe and reliable ammunition is in the hands and weapons of his brother Soldiers.

Army Ammunition Specialist (89B)

https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-...and-combat-support/ammunition-specialist.html

Overview


Ammunition specialists are specialized Soldiers who are responsible for the management of ordnance (ammunition and explosives). They are tasked with receiving, storing and issuing conventional ammunition, guided missiles, large rockets, explosives and other ammunition and explosive related items.


Job Duties

• Perform maintenance modification, destruction and demilitarization on ammunition and explosive components
• Operate computer hardware and software/utilities manual records in order to perform stock control and accounting procedures
• Perform ammunition supply stock control and accounting duties using both automated and manual procedures
• Inspect weapon systems to determine need for repair or destruction

Each service has Ammunition Specialists or Technicians crawling through their area of responsibility, inspecting, making records, sending data through their chain of Command.

The Marine Corp has a nice web site with Ammunition Quarterlies.

Marine Corp Ammunition Program Manager, Fall 2014 Ammunition Quarterly

http://www.marcorsyscom.marines.mil/Portals/105/PMAMMO/Documents/AmmunitionQuarterly_Fall_2014.pdf

Have you, as a supporting Unit Ammo Tech, been out on a range and had those who were training bring back ammunition, stating that some or all of the ammo did not fire or function the way it was supposed to? Have you been issuing out ammo or had ammo brought back to you on a range that was dented, leaking orange powder or otherwise defective? Have you wondered what to do with the ammunition assets in these scenarios? How about as a supporting Ammo Tech? Have you been in the process of completing a receipt (turn-in) and the supported unit technician tells you how some of the ammunition being turned in didn’t function correctly (there were duds, they were rusted/dented, etc.), and wondered what the correct procedures were to handle these types of situations? The correct answer to each one of these scenarios is to have the supported unit technician complete a Malfunction or Defect Report as required per Marine Corps Order (MCO) 8025.1E.



First, let’s review the definitions of a malfunction and a defect. Per MCO 8025.1E,



A MALFUNCTION occurs when an ammunition item fails to function in accordance with the design, intent and expected performance when fired, launched or otherwise employed as specified. Malfunctions include the abnormal or premature functioning of an item as a result of normal handling, maintenance, storage, transportation or tactical employment.


A DEFECT is an imperfection that may prevent an item from functioning as intended or result in a malfunction. Defects include, but are not limited to, cracked cartridge case, loose primer, missing safety pin, deteriorated or leaking propellant bags or containers, presence of excessive rust/corrosion, and obvious external damage, etc.



Responsibilities of the Supported Unit



When a supported unit experiences an ammo malfunction/defect, the following information needs to be provided, at a minimum:

Identification of the unit, with a Point of Contact (POC) with first-hand knowledge of the incident


•Complete identification of ammunition, Department of Defense Identification Code, National Stock Number, Ammunition Lot Number (ALN) and Serial Number, as well as the quantity of how many rounds were fired and how many rounds failed
• Identification/description of weapon(s), including condition before and after the incident, settings, rate-of-fire, target, etc.
•Description of incident, including if there were any injuries, fatalities or damage

•Local (prevailing) conditions, date and time of incident, weather, terrain, etc.

•Ammo storage conditions prior to firing

• Whether the ALN was locally sus-pended as a result of the incident (by the Range Safety Officer or Ammunition Supply Point) and any other pertinent information Additional reporting requirements can be found in MCO 8025.1E.



If any remaining rounds from the ALN that failed to function as intended, or any residue from the failed rounds (misfires, cartridge cases, fragments, etc.) are deemed safe for transport by Explosive Ordnance Disposal, the supported unit is to return them to the supporting activity and notify the activity of the malfunction/defect. Damaged weapons will be returned to the unit armory with notification that a malfunction occurred, and the weapon is to remain “as is” until further notice. All required information is gathered, written up and submitted in a Naval Message and released via Automated Message Handling System. The message is routed to MARCORSYSCOM, PM Ammo and Marine Corps Programs Division (MCPD) Fallbrook, at a minimum, and additional addresses are listed in MCO 8025.1E.



In the event of a critical incident with serious injuries, fatalities or damage, PM Ammo will be notified immediately by phone and with a follow-up Naval Message report. The firing position is to be cordoned off, taken out of operation and protected/maintained until investigators arrive.For more detailed information on supported unit responsibilities regarding malfunction/defect reporting, refer to MCO 8025.1E.



Responsibilities of the Supporting Unit The supporting activity will determine whether to locally suspend the ALN involved, based on the severity of the incident. If suspended, the supporting activity is to notify (via telephone, email, etc.) PM Ammo of their action(s), including the on-hand balance of the ALN involved. If the supported activity returns remaining rounds/residue, the supporting activity will tag, segregate and store the turned-in items “pending investigation” until receipt of a notice to release or dispose of the ammunition from PM Ammo.



Why it Matters


One might think that one leaking B519 round or one dented A576 round is no big deal; or a couple of M766s that don’t work as well as MN08s aren’t that big of a deal—just tell the supporting activity techs and it’ll get taken care of. However, these seemingly “small” instances can actually make a big difference when proper procedures are followed.



Malfunction Reports are assessed/reviewed to determine if the ALN involved was at fault: if there was any possibility that the ammunition was defective and if the defect resulted in the malfunction. If the ammunition is found to be at fault/defective, a secondary assessment isconducted to see if there is a cost-effective fix for the defect. This assessment is exclusively driven by the safety and reliability of the ammunition. MCPD Fallbrook provides PM Ammo with technical assessments of each reported malfunction. Assessments are based on information provided in Malfunction Reports, additional information obtained from POCs, witnesses and a review of additional elements, such as:
•ALN production data (specifications, waivers, deviations, Lot Acceptance Test data, etc.)

•ALN and common component history (previous malfunctions, Notice of Ammunition Reclassifications [NARs], Ammunition Information Notices [AINs], investigations, inspections, etc.) including the history of “sister”ALNs and history data compiled by other services.



Without Malfunction and Defect Reports, ammunition cannot properly be reclassified. NARs/AINs are generated in part from supported activities’ submission of Malfunction/Defect Reports. So, next time you see that leaking B519 round or rusted ammo, or someone complains of ammo not firing like it’s supposed to, refer to MCO 8025.1E and make sure the Malfunction/Defect Report is submitted to ensure the ammo is properly reclassified and a malfunction is prevented

AMMUNITION QUARTERLY SPRING 2014


http://www.marcorsyscom.marines.mil/Portals/105/PMAMMO/Documents/AmmunitionQuarterly.pdf

DEFECT CODES: WHAT ARE THEY AND WHY DO WE NEED THEM?




A Defect Code (D/C) is a six-digit, alphanumeric code that complements and supplements ammunition Condition Codes (C/C) by identifying specific reasons for C/C assignments and/or identifying specific defects or conditions. Composition: D/Cs are constructed in four parts, as follows:


Reference Material: A complete list of applicable alphanumeric codes may be found in reference NAVSUP P-805. Assets locally as-signed C/C “H” shall have an assigned “M”-series status code. This does not apply to assets reclassified by Notice of Ammunition Re-classification (NAR). The status code “H” shall not be used for Marine Corps Class V(W) assets.


Proper D/C assignment facilitates the Inventory Control Point’s determination of why some stocks are in C/Cs other than alpha, and aids the Analysis and Evaluation Team in providing monthly safety oversight through our Monthly Inventory Review Reports. This report identifies lots that have been downgraded by NAR but may have been missed by storage activities. Also, this report helps to filter out those lots that are legitimate local downgrades and missed NARs. In some cases, scrubbing this monthly report requires a great deal of effort from our storage activities because some activities, not knowing the proper D/C to use, began assigning local D/Cs that do not meet the criteria for a proper D/C. In an effort to simplify the D/C assignment process, MCO 8010.13 establishes 54 D/Cs commonly used D/Cs by all our Marine Corps 0T Current Operations Group activities. Please keep in mind that the list of D/Cs in Figure 1is not complete, nor will it cover every type of ammo problem and situation. Because it covers the most commonly used D/Cs, though, this list should be a starting point, as it provides the basic foundation for D/Cs.We are at a point where correcting or avoiding inventory errors and complying with our Safety Oversight Program requires that we use properly assigned D/Cs. They provide a depth of visibility we have never had before.



When D/Cs are not used, it merely slows down our effort to provide our Marine Corps supported units and supporting activities with a good inventory tool. We suggest that all units/activities use the D/Cs in Figure 1on their assets that are in other than C/C alpha and that have not already had a D/C applied to them during local downgrades, or assigned by a current NAR.



These D/Cs should apply to all lots in your inventory in other than C/C alpha for the reasons listed. D/Cs enable us to improve the Physical Inventory Control Program and ultimately increase overall inventory accuracy of the Class V(W) stockpile. Furthermore, D/Cs provide a means for the Item Managers at PM Ammo to quickly identify certain categories of ammunition and their associated lot numbers.



By utilizing the list of D/Cs with corresponding descriptions provided, using MCO 8010.13 and NAVSUP P-805, you cannot go wrong in assigning your D/Cs!!!

Figure 1. Most Commonly Used Defect Codes


FAAA0X


MALFUNCTION REPORT, UNSAFE MATERIAL


FAAZZZ


LOCAL SUSPENSION


LAAZZZ


SUSPENDED, ASSET PENDING SDR/INVENTORY ADJUSTMENT


MAAAZZ


UNSERVICEABLE, NAR ISSUED, PENDING DISPOSITION


MAAZ04


UNSERVICEABLE, UNSAFE, EXPLOSIVE EXUDATES/RESIDUE/CONTAMINATION, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ07


UNSERVICEABLE, UNSAFE/DROPPED, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ08


UNSERVICEABLE, UNSAFE, MISFIRE/UNSAFE/HANG FIRE, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ1A


UNSERVICEABLE, DROPPED (EXCEEDING SAFE LIMITS) SAFE FOR STORAGE/TRANSPORTATION, PENDING DISPO


MAAZ1B


UNSERVICEABLE, MISFIRE/HANGFIRE, SAFE FOR STORAGE/TRANSPORTATION, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ1X


UNSERVICEABLE, LEGIBLE MARKINGS, FOUND ON STATION, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ20


UNSERVICEABLE, SHELF-LIFE EXPIRED, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ22


UNSERVICEABLE, WET/EXCESSIVE MOISTURE, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ23


UNSERVICEABLE, EXCESSIVE RUST, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ27


UNSERVICEABLE, EXUDING/HYDROGEN GAS BUILD UP, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZ51


UNSERVICEABLE, INCORRECT/UNAUTHORIZED CONFIGURATION (MN79), PENDING DISPOSITION.


MAAZZZ


UNSERVICEABLE, UNDEFINED, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MCCZ60


UNSERVICEABLE, DAMAGE TO CARTRIDGE CASE, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MLKZ50


UNSERVICEABLE, MISSING LINKS, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MLKZ60


UNSERVICEABLE, DAMAGED LINK, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MLNZ50


UNSERVICEABLE, MISSING LOT NUMBER, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MMKZ28


UNSERVICEABLE, MARKING ILLEGIBLE, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MOBZ60


UNSERVICEABLE, DAMAGE TO OBTURATOR BAND, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MPJZ60


UNSERVICEABLE, STRUCTURAL DAMAGE TO PROJECTILE, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MPPZ50


UNSERVICEABLE, MISSING PROPELLANT INCREMENT(S), PENDING DISPOSITION.


MPPZ60


UNSERVICEABLE, DAMAGED PROPELLANT BAGS, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MPRZ08


UNSERVICEABLE, UNSAFE, DAMAGED PRIMER/MISFIRE, PENDING DISPOSITION.


MRBZ60


UNSERVICEABLE, DAMAGED ROTATING BAND/PUNCHED RD, PENDING DISPOSITION.

I copied a partial list of the defect codes. Hopefully seeing some of them will give you an idea that there are Soldiers out there examining, keeping track of inventory, making sure that good ammunition is issued to the troops. Bad ammunition is weeded out of inventory. The amount of bad ammunition that is destroyed every year is staggering. The United States military destroys about $1 billion dollars of munitions every year, the weight of the stuff is hundred of thousands of pounds, or hundreds of thousand of tons. Someone can look that up. It is mind boggling.


Army Not Producing Enough Ammunition

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2003/May/Pages/Army_Not3866.aspx


Regardless of what the Army decides to do with its industrial base, the fundamental issue does not change: the Army needs to produce more war reserve ammunition, Naughton said. Time is running out, he said. “Most of the ammunition in the stockpile today was built 20 years ago during the Cold War buildup.” Most rounds are designed to have a shelf life of 20 years. “We are outside the envelope of the shelf life on 40 percent or more of our existing ammunition. The rest is rapidly approaching the end of its shelf life.”

Ammunition does not “go bad” overnight, after it reaches a certain age, but “once it’s over 20 years old, the reliability rapidly degrades,” said Naughton. Within a few years, it will become increasingly difficult to shoot it. “You can predict that you’ll lose 7-8 percent of the ammo after the 20-year mark.”*

To replace the obsolete rounds, the Army would have to produce 100,000 tons of war reserve ammunition a year for the next seven years. Past that point, it would need 50,000 tons to 60,000 tons a year to sustain the stockpile. That represents about “half the level of the Cold War buildup,” he said.

* I think what is meant, 7-8 percent per year after 20 years.

Why do so many in the shooting community think their ammunition is immortal and are absolutely unaware that ammunition has a shelf life, and that when it goes bad, it goes bad dangerously? Why do we have this culturally induced ignorance?


Hey, thanks for your service to our Country. I am currently reliving the Vietnam War period by watching the PBS special on the Vietnam War. I won't live long enough to see the PBS special on the 50th anniversary of the Iraq and Afghanistan War, but I bet it will show the same lies, just a different cast of liars.

 

[FL-NC]

FL-NC, : There are a lot of people behind the scenes doing things that you are unaware of. The reason you did not have any issues is that a brother Soldier was doing his job and protecting you from dangerous ammunition. The Job of the Ammunition Technician is to ensure that safe and reliable ammunition is in the hands and weapons of his brother Soldiers.

Army Ammunition Specialist (89B)

https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-...and-combat-support/ammunition-specialist.html

Overview


Ammunition specialists are specialized Soldiers who are responsible for the management of ordnance (ammunition and explosives). They are tasked with receiving, storing and issuing conventional ammunition, guided missiles, large rockets, explosives and other ammunition and explosive related items.


Job Duties

• Perform maintenance modification, destruction and demilitarization on ammunition and explosive components
• Operate computer hardware and software/utilities manual records in order to perform stock control and accounting procedures
• Perform ammunition supply stock control and accounting duties using both automated and manual procedures
• Inspect weapon systems to determine need for repair or destruction

Each service has Ammunition Specialists or Technicians crawling through their area of responsibility, inspecting, making records, sending data through their chain of Command.

The Marine Corp has a nice web site with Ammunition Quarterlies.

Marine Corp Ammunition Program Manager, Fall 2014 Ammunition Quarterly

http://www.marcorsyscom.marines.mil/Portals/105/PMAMMO/Documents/AmmunitionQuarterly_Fall_2014.pdf





AMMUNITION QUARTERLY SPRING 2014


http://www.marcorsyscom.marines.mil/Portals/105/PMAMMO/Documents/AmmunitionQuarterly.pdf












I copied a partial list of the defect codes. Hopefully seeing some of them will give you an idea that there are Soldiers out there examining, keeping track of inventory, making sure that good ammunition is issued to the troops. Bad ammunition is weeded out of inventory. The amount of bad ammunition that is destroyed every year is staggering. The United States military destroys about $1 billion dollars of munitions every year, the weight of the stuff is hundred of thousands of pounds, or hundreds of thousand of tons. Someone can look that up. It is mind boggling.


Army Not Producing Enough Ammunition

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2003/May/Pages/Army_Not3866.aspx


Regardless of what the Army decides to do with its industrial base, the fundamental issue does not change: the Army needs to produce more war reserve ammunition, Naughton said. Time is running out, he said. “Most of the ammunition in the stockpile today was built 20 years ago during the Cold War buildup.” Most rounds are designed to have a shelf life of 20 years. “We are outside the envelope of the shelf life on 40 percent or more of our existing ammunition. The rest is rapidly approaching the end of its shelf life.”

Ammunition does not “go bad” overnight, after it reaches a certain age, but “once it’s over 20 years old, the reliability rapidly degrades,” said Naughton. Within a few years, it will become increasingly difficult to shoot it. “You can predict that you’ll lose 7-8 percent of the ammo after the 20-year mark.”*

To replace the obsolete rounds, the Army would have to produce 100,000 tons of war reserve ammunition a year for the next seven years. Past that point, it would need 50,000 tons to 60,000 tons a year to sustain the stockpile. That represents about “half the level of the Cold War buildup,” he said.

* I think what is meant, 7-8 percent per year after 20 years.

Why do so many in the shooting community think their ammunition is immortal and are absolutely unaware that ammunition has a shelf life, and that when it goes bad, it goes bad dangerously? Why do we have this culturally induced ignorance?


Hey, thanks for your service to our Country. I am currently reliving the Vietnam War period by watching the PBS special on the Vietnam War. I won't live long enough to see the PBS special on the 50th anniversary of the Iraq and Afghanistan War, but I bet it will show the same lies, just a different cast of liars.

Yep, we had those people in the unit. They stayed at FOBs like KAF, BAF, Salerno, Moorehead, etc. They were the guys we submitted our ammo orders to via email, then they put it all on kicker pallets, had the riggers load those onto CH-47's, which then brought the boom booms to the teams forward deployed on the fire bases. A fire base generally had 2 teams, which each had 2 18B's (that was me). The 4 18B's were the only ones that had access and maintained control of the shipping containers- at least everywhere I worked over 23 years. Like I said- no problems. The only "dangerous ammunition" we ever dealt with was that which was sensitized or damaged (such as explosives in a vehicle that was hit by an IED) and WE demo'd that stuff ourselves since every ammo tech and many EOD types didn't even want to go where we were- or "dangerous ammunition" of the variety that was sent to us via commie designed weaponry and sent at high velocity.

 

[Paul7]

If it's so dangerous to shoot old ammo why is the military still using .50 cal ammo from WWII?

 

[Slamfire]

If it's so dangerous to shoot old ammo why is the military still using .50 cal ammo from WWII?

That is wonderfully specific. Just when and where is the US Military still using 50 caliber ammunition from WW2? And, why don't you ask the Ammunition Technician why the stuff is still good?

Implicit in the question is the assumption that ammunition lasts forever. Right? Well these charts from a 1969 and 1970 Insensitive Munitions symposium show that forty seven years ago they were testing WW2 ammunition and scrapping the stuff. At the time that ammunition would have been around 27 years old.

1969 Insensitive Munitions Symposium



1970 Insensitive Munitions Symposium

 

[Johnjane3000(Northpark)]

Hey everybody, hope Saturday is going well for you guys.
If I store my ammo in military grade ammo boxes, can I then store it in a non-temp regulated place? I.e. my attic?

I would store the ammo in my closet or anywhere else like that.
I really wouldn't store them in my attic if you live in the south. Just store them somewhere that has air-conditioning.

 

[John Joseph]

Do not store any gunpowder in areas which exceed 86 F as shelf life decreases exponentially.

View attachment 763681

Aged gunpowder increases in pressure. There are lots of accounts of firearms blown up with military surplus ammunition, or old ammunition. The unfortunates don't know why, lots of weird explanations come out from posters, but old gunpowder and high pressures are the most likely cause for 99.9999% of them. I am open minded enough to state that something else could be the problem for the other 0.00001% of blowup accidents that happen with old ammunition.

View attachment 763682


Throughout the Insensitive Munitions field, world wide, ammunition large and small is removed from inventory when the stabilizer reaches 20% of original content. This has a good explanation of how gunpowder deteriorates.


Ammunition Surveillance Procedures SB 742-1


https://acc.dau.mil/adl/en-US/723535/file/82862/DA PAM 742-1 22 Nov 16.pdf

Chapter 13 Propellant and Propelling Charges ,

page 13-1

WARNING

Nitrocellulose-based propellant can become thermally unstable as the age. The normal aging process of the propellants involves deterioration of the nitrocellulose with an accompanying generation of heat. At some point, the propellant may reach a state where heat is generated faster than it can be dissipated. The accumulation of heat can lead to combustion (autoignition). Chemical stabilizers are added to propellants to slow the aging process. In time, the stabilizer levels will drop to a point where the remaining effective stabilizer (RES) is not sufficient to prevent an accelerating rate of decomposition. When this point is reached, the propellant may autoigniet, with possible catastrophic results to property and life. Monitoring the stability level of each propellant lot is essential for continued safe storage.

Page 13-5 , Table 13.2 Propellant Stability Codes.

Stability Category A 0.30 or more Percent Effective Stabilizer

Acceptable stabilizer loss: safe for continued storage

C 0.29-0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Significant stabilizer loss. Lot does not represent an immediate hazard, but is approaching a potentially hazardous stability condition. Loss of stabilizer does adversely affect function in an uploaded configuration. Disposition instructions will be furnished by NAR. All stability category “C” assests on the installation must be reported in writing…

One year after becoming stability category “C” a sample of the bulk propellant lot or the bulk-packed component lot will be retested. If the lot has not deteriorated to category “D”, it will be retested each year until it has been expended, or it has deteriorated to category “D”, at which point it will be demilitarized within 60 days.

D Less than 0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Unacceptable stabilizer loss. Lots identified as stability category “D” present a potential safety hazard and are unsafe for continued storage as bulk, bulk-packed components , or as separate loading propellant chargers. Bulk propellant, bulk –packed components and separate loading propelling charges will be demilitarized within 60 days after notification of category “D” status.

This is how storage at elevated temperatures deteriorated this lot of gunpowder.
View attachment 763683

Temperature is the primary enemy of smokeless gunpowder. Smokeless gunpowder does not have an infinite shelf life. The fact that the shooting community is largely unaware of this is an example of Agnotology. "Agnotology (formerly agnatology) is the study of culturally induced ignorance or doubt, particularly the publication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology A very good question is why don't you know what you don't know?

It is my opinion that the primary teachers of the shooting community are in print magazines which always prioritize the interests of the shooting industry over that of the shooters. I consider in print gun magazine and in print gunwriters as shills for the industry. As such, it is in no one's interest to educate you, the shooting public, about things which may make you reluctant to buy. If you knew that ammunition has a shelf life, you might get picky, you may not want to pay full price for old, old ammunition. You may in fact, want a discount! HORRORS!. Or a use by date. We have it on hamburgers, pickles, milk, why not ammunition and gunpowder?

Ignorance has no positives for the individual, but it probably does for the industry. Ignorant people will get injured doing dangerous things because they don't know better. But, who are they going to sue if they don't know better?

So we're talking about double base propellants here---the nitro glycerine element being the fly in the geriatric ointment then? I've been concerned about this for long term storage of reloading powders (you'd understand if you lived in CA)
This is the first supporting documentation I've heard of.

 

[coloradokevin]

Hey everybody, hope Saturday is going well for you guys.
If I store my ammo in military grade ammo boxes, can I then store it in a non-temp regulated place? I.e. my attic?

"Military grade ammo boxes" are not temperature regulated places. As such, the ammo in those boxes is going to pretty closely match the ambient temperature in the immediate vicinity of those boxes. The ammo boxes are watertight, but the air in the box can still be humid if you live in such a place.

I'd recommend a cool dry location. If you can't do a dry location, that's fine. Throw some desiccant packets in the ammo can, and rely on the can to stay otherwise dry. But, seek out a location that isn't too hot, and doesn't vary too much in temperature. I use my basement here in Colorado... the temperature is always in the 60's, and the area is reasonably dry.

Finally, don't get too worked up about storage. I still have surplus ammo from 1935 that I shoot in my Mauser, and none of this ammo has failed me yet. I'm quite certain that sometime in the past 82 years that military ammunition wasn't stored under optimal conditions. Regardless of what you do (short of throwing the ammo in a lake) you'll probably be fine.

 

[coloradokevin]

I'm shooting Turkish 8mm loaded in the 30s. I don't know how well it was stored before I acquired it, but I keep it in military ammo cans in the house.
I also have an AC vent in the 9x7 room where its stored.
Avoid putting your ammo in the attic with your brain damaged brother, you wouldn't want him to play with it and hurt himself
View attachment 763692

That's some of the same ammo I'm still shooting... works just fine.

 

[Stope Rat]

One other thing to consider; if you have "enough" ammunition, you are probably overloading the roof trusses. Don't put the couch under where the ammo is, in case it suddenly succumbs to the law of gravity.

 

[tark]

Well, I know this: I've got some NATO stamped 5.56 mm tracers that are 1987 issue. Half of them don't trace.

 

[Slamfire]

So we're talking about double base propellants here---the nitro glycerine element being the fly in the geriatric ointment then? I've been concerned about this for long term storage of reloading powders (you'd understand if you lived in CA)

Nitro glycerine attacks the NO double bonds in nitrocellulose. That is why double based powders have about half the shelf life of single based. Incidentally, any ionic compound, such as rust, will try to share electrons with the double bonded NO. Water is polar covalent and "acts" ionic. Water is in the air,call it humidity. Water ions land on the double based grain and then evaporate off. When they leave they "wick" nitrogylcerine to the surface. This will in time make the surface of a double based powder nitrogylcerine rich and spike the burn rate. A rule of thumb is that good double based powders have a 20 year shelf life and single based 45 years. My rule of thumb is shoot the stuff up before any of it is 20 years old. I have already poured out a keg of AA4064 that I bought in the mid 1990's. That is a single based powder but it caused cracked case necks in 308 brass that had been loaded for four months.

California shooters think they can stock up, but the absolute best solution for them is to stock up on cases, bullets, powder, primers. Only load ammunition you plan to shoot up within a year or two. Having massive amounts of loaded ammunition means people are going to be tossing good brass and primers along with the bad gunpowder that ruined the round. Bad gun powder will ruin good brass cases. I wish I had known this before 2011, I have lots of ammunition I loaded, still shooting up 30-06 I loaded in the late 1980's with Dupont IMR.I am experiencing case neck cracks, body cracks, and flyers with cases loaded with old gunpowder

This is the first supporting documentation I've heard of.

Like I said, it is in no ones financial benefit to educate the shooting public about gunpowder deterioration. The industry keeps you ignorant, barefoot and pregnant. Your ignorance is their strength. You can get self educated, just search using the term "Insensitive Munition". It is a comment on the Agnotology of the shooting community that one of the best collections of information on the problems of old ammunition is on an anti gun site, the "Small Arms Survey". http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/ They continuously change links to their publications and reorganize material, but if you search you will find studies on the millions of tons of ammunition that are scrapped each year.

I just found this link about ammunition dumps exploding world wide. It won't be good for long.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/weap.../unplanned-explosions-at-munitions-sites.html

Gunpowder when it gets older it gets unstable. When its gets unstable it will auto combust. If you have old artillery shells and the like, guess what happens to the rest when one goes kaboom. What you get is a big, badda, boom.