Ammunition by Anonymous: Opinion Piece

[Nightcrawler]

I found this piece while surfing the web while I should've been working: CLICK.

It's not copyrighted and is intended for dissemination. It's too long to post in full here, but I'll quote some highlights. First, the preface by Chuck Hawks (I found it on his site, but he is not the author).

I didn't post this in handguns because the article includes some rifle and shotgun stuff as well. Mods, feel free to move if you think it'd be more appropriate there.

I decided to reproduce this rather long piece here partly because it is clearly the author's desire that it be widely disseminated. Another part is that it makes interesting reading, and I enjoy a good read as much as anyone. Although the author has some strong opinions and I don't necessarily agree with all of them, they are informed opinions and worthy of careful consideration. Actually, I have an idea about the identity of "Anonymous," which is another reason this piece appears here, but it is the author's desire to remain amonymous, and in any case I could be wrong.

Okay then! Let's get into the nuts and bolts. This piece is rather opinionated and will likely stir up a ruckus.

Never use hand-loaded or re-loaded ammunition for self-defense! You may encounter some joker who says he can hand-load ammunition so powerful it will knock anything on two legs down for the count, but don't buy it. This junk will either misfire or ruin your gun. Use only fresh factory-loaded cartridges, period. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this rule: use factory-loaded cartridges only.

I've heard of legalistic reasons not to use handloaded ammo, but never 'cause it's "junk".

This is a guide to help you select the best ammunition for your defensive firearm. Most of these opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, police officers who have extensively studied the issue of firearms, ammunition and stopping power. I refer all interested parties to the excellent series by Ayoob ('In the Gravest Extreme,''Stressfire,' 'The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense', 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun') and the comprehensive book 'Stopping Power' by Marshall and Sanow.

Hrmm...I tend to be dubious of anyone that uses Marhsall and Sanow for reference. Personally, I think their methods defy logic. But that's my opinion. Note that the article seems a bit dated, too. For instance, I don't believe Cor-Bon offers 180 grain self defense ammo in .44; I think they've gone to 165 grain for both Special and Magnum.

.357 Magnum

The most effective handgun round on the market - regardless of caliber - is the Federal .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint (357B). This load has more stopping power than any other handgun bullet (and this includes more powerful rounds like the .41 and .44 Magnums). I advise all experienced revolver men to carry the legendary Federal 357B in a .357 revolver, or the equally good Remington full-power 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint (R357M1).

There is one caveat, however. The 357B and other full-power .357 Magnums have a lot of blast and kick. If you are not comfortable with the buck and roar of full-house .357 Magnums, I would strongly suggest that you use a lower-recoil round. Controllability is important, and you will be able to fire lower-recoil rounds more rapidly and accurately. All of these .357 loads have excellent stopping power, so don't worry that you are giving up too much.

Elmer Keith would've disagreed...

The 10mm is not living up to expectations. It was thought to be the ne plus ultra of pistol rounds when introduced in the late 1980's, but hasn't turned out to be superior to the better 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP jacketed hollowpoints. This isn't to say that the 10mm Auto sucks - it is a fine stopper. It's just that we hoped for so much more.

10mm Auto ammunition is available in two power levels, "full-house" and "medium velocity," as used by the FBI (sometimes called "10mm Lite"). The "full-house" loads should be left for hunting use: they kick heavily, blow right through assailants, and are very hard on your gun. Stick to the medium velocity ammo. I would pick the Cor-Bon 135 grain Nosler JHP, Federal 155 grain JHP (10E), or Federal Hydra-shok 155 gr. JHP (P40HS2). The "FBI load" is the 180 grain subsonic JHP, and Federal, Winchester, and Remington all produce good ones. Take your pick, but you are silly to ignore the superior real-world performance of the lighter 135-155 grain jacketed hollowpoints.

The potent Winchester Silvertip 175 grain JHP (X10MMSTHP) is close in power to the "full-house" loads, and may be a good choice for an experienced shooter who is used to heavy recoil. I personally would only carry the Silvertip or "full-house" loads in the field, where I might have to shoot big, cranky animals that seem interested in munching on my bodily parts. In this role the 10mm auto excels.

Hooo, Lordy. THAT's going to get the 10mm club riled up, isn't it? Can't say I especially agree with the author on this one.

For .45 Auto:

- Cor-Bon and Remington .45+P 185 grain JHP (R45AP6). These are very powerful and hard-kicking rounds best left to the experienced shooter. They are pretty hard on your gun, especially an aluminum-framed pistol like the SIG/Sauer P220 or Colt Lightweight Commander. If you are sufficiently expert to confidently carry the .45+P you certainly don't need my advice on load selection. That being said, these +P rounds are second only to the famed Hydra-shok in stopping power. They really sledgehammer the bad guys down.

I carry +P ammo. I don't think I'd qualify as an expert.

Anyway, those are some highlights. What do you say, everybody?

 

[the pistolero]

It's just that we hoped for so much more.

What, exactly, were "they" hoping for? The "magic bullet"? One would think a gun writer would know better than to get suckered by someone who apparently was over-selling the 10mm cartridge. This one apparently didn't.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Interesting. If it were a review by a resturant critic he'd be recomending that we all get lunch at McDonalds and only get the 'super size' if we were expert enough to handle it.

"That being said, these +P rounds are second only to the famed Hydra-shok in stopping power. They really sledgehammer the bad guys down."

I don't know--but here the guy sounds like a 15 year old.
One that I wouldn't trust next to me on the firing line.



"I carry +P ammo. I don't think I'd qualify as an expert."
Oh come on....in my experience the gun people that use that disclaimer almost always are more expert than not.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Sounds like me... when I was 16.

The "famed Hyrda-Shok?" Kid's seen way too many movies. So many inaccuracies to even bother debating.

 

[hacksaw]

Things that make you go....

Sorry if that seems just a wee harsh, it's early and I am severely in need of a lot of black coffee.....but the above quotes seem to have been written by a very "amateurish" writer...on second thought my first instinct seems the correct one.....


Have a great weekend all!

 

[benEzra]

This is an evolution of the rec.guns Ammo FAQ, which has been around a long time.

The author states a lot of things categorically that are actually very subjective, and makes some comments that don't make sense, but if you get past the absolute statements and hyperbole and look at the actual load recommendations, I tend to agree with most of them, as do a lot of gunnies (if everyone was in the Fackler camp, the .357 Sig would not exist). My 9mm carry load is Cor-Bon 115gr JHP +P, for example.

 

[ETXhiker]

Hysterically funny, that someone writes an article giving their "expert" opinion, then signs it "anonymous."

My guess is that Sanow wrote it and didn't want the derision he'd get using his real name.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

There are so many ammo recommendation lists on the 'net it's not even funny! I have a feeling 99.9992% of them were written by people who have never had to fire a gun in self defense and are just that person's "take" on what other, more qualified people have written.

That said, I use .25acp because experts like me have cousin's daughter's best friend's uncles drinking buddy that have seen the .25 knock a train clear off it's tracks and blow a grizzly bear clean in half! That's only hollowpoints though. FMJ will overpenetrate and shoot end to end through a D11 CAT.

 

[mrb302]

Almost as good as the time a friend of a friend told me that he switched from a 30-06 to a 7mm Rem Mag becuase:

"I shot a deer with a 7mag and it flipped up in the air and did a barrel roll before landing on the ground dead!"

You gotta love the "experts".

 

[Rem700SD]

Sheesh. I was told by a well known instructor to use plain ball ammo. Based on the gunshot wounds I've seen(and I've seen a few), they seem to work as well as anything else. The biggest mistake people make is not to use enough of them, or use them in the wrong spots.
The "best" one I've seen was where a guy was diving in to his car. He was shot in the buttock and the bullet was lodged behind his collar bone. Hollow points just don't travel that far. The bullet in this case was a solid.

Dan

 

[ArfinGreebly]

10 mm

The 10mm is not living up to expectations.

They were hoping it would shoot through schools.

 

[torpid]

They were hoping it would shoot through schools.

Before anybody panics, see "Johnny Dangerously".

 

[bogie]

Really, it all really just depends on which weapon you select using your game controller...

Sigh...

 

[.cheese.]

I can agree with the author about not going the 10mm route - but not for the same reasons.

10mm is plenty powerful, it's main drawbacks in my opinion are recoil preventing quick follow-up shots (which is to my understanding one reason why they started underloading it which eventually led to the .40 S&W being developed), and these days, legal issues surrounding it - ie: the Harold Fish case (although there are some other issues there aside from just him having used 10mm which led to his legal problems).

However, if you can deal with the recoil and aren't concerned with legal issues.... for power, there's nothing wrong with the 10mm IMO.

Also - HS's work - but there are plenty of other more high-tech alternatives out there that do the job as well if not better.

I agree that handloads can be quite good quality - but yeah, the legal issues are a problem. "So, Mr. Smith, you not only shot Mr. Anderson, but you manufactured the bullet too? Is that correct?"

Also, as for .357 magnum - sure it's a good round, but you could go with the .357 Sig too.... and get more capacity. Of course, you give up a tiny bit of reliability - so it's a tradeoff.

btw - for the record, all of my handguns are chambered for .40 S&W.

 

[ilcylic]

Well, I'm a big Centimeter fan, and I have to say, if he's recommending the Cor-Bon 10mm round, he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Cor-Bon makes lousy 10mm so their .400 Cor-Bon wildcat will seem good in comparison.

Double-Tap Ammo is the brand to go with for 10mm.

Also, I'm 6'5" and 280# and a recoil junkie. So, my experiences with 10mm may differ from yours.