And are they surprised?

[murph50]

Very good amoredman
I got the connection with the Obama statement right away
As far as the bible goes...well you needed that there to go along with what Obama said.
I'm not religious at all and I don't take any offense to it.
Freedom of religion means freedom of religion.
I really enjoy your posters

 

[jlbraun]

*sigh*

No, appealing to popularity is not a good thing when you're trying to advocate an idea. Logical fallacies are things to be avoided.

Maybe it's because I go outside of the gun community, online and IRL quite frequently, to do RKBA advocacy, that I see the potential for deleterious effects. When I have to face antis, or even more importantly, swing voters in the audience, negative stereotypes are something you absolutely do NOT want to play into. Also, tying together two contentious issues, one of which is much nastier to deal with than the other, does not help at all, EVER. The only people who posters like this appeal to don't need any convincing; you've already got their vote. HOWEVER, there are plenty of people out there who haven't made up their minds. Playing into stereotypes, and tying together multiple hotly contentious issues is always a BAD idea if you're trying to win a debate and forward an idea, but it's always a great tactic if you're trying to confuse people, stall an idea, or kill a debate. I've had it tried on me many many many times and it always makes me do ten times more work to get the RKBA message across when someone successfully introduces the "bible-beating, gun-loving redneck" stereotype into an argument.

So, the point I'm trying to make, which some unfortunately seem unable or unwilling to grasp, is that, while I know your intentions are good, that you are apparently unaware of just how much DAMAGE your picture can do when let loose onto the population at large.

This.

The poster, I think, damages the perception of RKBA overall by putting out a message that is representative of stereotypes that are difficult to dispel.

Rather, I would have a poster that kept to the "clinging to religion and guns" spirit of Obama's quote, but dispelled stereotypes as well.

For example, by having the book in the person's hand be Life of the Buddha.

 

[gp911]

Wow, we have the same grill!

The picture looks like my environment before I moved back to the sticks...

As for the original "cling" pic I think it's great. If one wants to omit one item or the other to suit their preference they can make their own, but the quote includes both. If someone wants to try and represent "antipathy towards people that aren't like them" in their picture they can do that too, thanks to the 1st amendment. That would be a bit over the top though... Heh. Changing the Bible to a Quran, now THAT might cause all sorts of confusion as to what to get mad about!

gp911

 

[rfurtkamp]

While I am not offended at your poster, I can state that it does not accurately represent me, nor a sizable percentage of the RKBA community who does not believe the same thing(s) as you do, when it comes to the other half of Mr. Obama's quote. You know, the one that has nothing to do with RKBA?

I'm as far from post-Nicene Christianity as you can possibly get, further than an athiest in a real sense, and I'm not offended one bit by the poster. Americans cling to their religious beliefs (or lack of them, as evidenced in this thread) and their guns, both things which the candidate in question seeks to take away in practice.

If you do not see a threat to your own belief or lack thereof and exercise of same in an attack by government on any religious thought, you are a fool.

If you do not see a threat to your Second Amendment rights...well, be offended by the poster too.

I do not have to agree with America's Christian citizens to be as agast as they are at Obama's comments.

There will be no room for my 'evil' people worshipping in their own ways with their 'evil' rifles in private or public if the man and his handlers got their way.

 

[rfurtkamp]

For example, by having the book in the person's hand be Life of the Buddha.

Then you'd have people arguing that Buddhism is not a religion.

I could demand my holy books be carried in the photo, but I doubt that it'd get my message out to the average American voter either - the Bible represents religious belief well enough even though I don't agree with huge portions of it.

I'm not going to win any votes putting my Crowley in, sorry.

 

[armoredman]

rfurtkamp, Alister Crowley's works aren't likely to be in this house! However, I do have Ozzy's song! Could carry a copy of the album art??
jlbraun, a Buddhist tract would be a non starter unless I had immolated myself in protest, as Buddhists are pacifists. Christianity is still the largest religous group in my country, USA.
gp911, I will probably be replacing that old Char Broil with a newer model, but it has put paid to MANY steaks, burgers, brats and chicken peices.
Davepool, GLOCK IS EVIL! Just kidding, made that one quite awhile ago to needle some glockophile friends.

 

[Mrs. Armoredman]

Good Greif. What a H*** of a thread.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Good composition and exposure. Technically very good picture.

Accurate representation of target audience. Won't sell well on a college campus, but will move in fly over country nicely.

One of the founding fathers made a statement. John Adams

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

 

[pax]

Mrs. A ~

Yes, Christians are so offensive that our very presence among the ranks of gun owners somehow threatens the RKBA movement ...

Well, maybe that's overstating it. It's good that we own guns, that's a given. And it's okay that we have beliefs and things. But heaven forbid -- uh, no, I mean, .... well, something forbid, anyway -- that we should ever mention those beliefs in public. Belief is so disgusting that merely admitting that you believe in something really forces all the really tolerant people to tell you to shut up because your mere existence is distasteful and somehow bad for the RKBA movement.

Move to the back of the bus, now.

I've quit being surprised at anything online, but if I were still capable of it, I'd be surprised by the vitriol on this thread.

Does anyone honestly doubt that Obama's comment was directed at gun owners who happen to be Christians?

pax

 

[rfurtkamp]

Does anyone honestly doubt that Obama's comment was directed at gun owners who happen to be Christians?

I think it was directed at anyone not in his urban elite bracket myself.

He's referring to that horrible wasteland you fly over between LA and NYC and the clueless yokels who live there ;0

 

[Mrs. Armoredman]

Pax no one knows the answer to that but Obama himself. I am not suprised what I read online either. Everyone has thier own opinion and they are entitled to it. I own a gun and the anti's would want me in jail because I can and will defend myself. Anti's want our rights taken away so criminals can break into our homes and take our possesions and our life in the process. I have news for them. I will fight tooth and nail for my rights.

 

[armoredman]

I remember a time when God, Guns and Guts were American core values, not a smudged out part of cultural diversity, aka the systematic destruction of the American Melting Pot.

 

[MacTech]

Here's my slight modification, no offense to the OP;

As one of those "Godless Heathen" Atheists myself, I had no problem with the poster, religion ain't my kinda' thing, but if it gives you comfort, I have no problem with it

I lean towards Pastafarianism/Frisbeeterianism myself anyway....

 

[Odd1]

Nice poster, was very clear to what you were refering.


I see the point that some people may associate gun owners with Christians.

So what? Gun owners come in all religions or lack there of in this country. And frankly, that is how it should be.

When BHO made his comment he was not talking about Buddha or Wiccans, I think we know to who he was refering.

Who really cares if Christianity and guns look like they go hand in hand in this poster (I am not saying they do)?

I mean unless something has changed, the majority religion in this country is Christianity (add up all flavors and variants that use that base book). So American gun owners would have many Christians then.

 

[rfurtkamp]

I remember a time when God, Guns and Guts were American core values

Yeah, I do too, it's one of the reasons I've been an Idaho resident for a decade now.

None of these things are a dirty word here.

I keep waiting for the 1970s to hit locally. I'll cry when they do.

The America I remember is still here, but I see it fading even from the edges.

It's sad.

 

[springmom]

No, Kingpin, it does not mean that. but neithe does every othe person's creative effort have to suit you, either. There is more than enough intellectual elbow room for those of us who believe in God, and those who do not, in the RKBA fight.

It does seem over the top to suggest that a poster which directly answers Obama's disgusting comment will *harm* RKBA efforts by including elements of faith. To say so implies, as 3KBees said, that faith is an embarrassing anachronism which will cause any intelligent person to immediately discount the rest of it. You are free to think that it is, of course... but not to xpect that all such references be expunged from the public square.

I, for one, am bloody tired of the back of bus and I'm happy Armoredman has posted his work. Well done.

Springmom

 

[Mrs. Armoredman]

Springmom, Well said. I like the poster my husband did too. He has a creative mind and knows how to get the point across. I have been with him for 12 years now and he has always managed to blow my mind one way or the other. We are both RKBA believers and we believe in God. He blessed us in many ways and I always try to remember the comfort he gives to me.

I don't care what religion anyone is. They have a right to worship the way they choose. I respect that.

 

[Mal H]

My God! (I hope I didn't just offend anyone.)

Why in the world would anyone think that armoredman's poster must represent them? Stop me if I'm wrong, but didn't the bottom line of his graphic say, "Pardon me while I cling to something"? The 'I' in that phrase is armoredman and only armoredman.

I must have missed the part where he asked for opinions on the poster because he had taken out a full-page ad in USA Today and planned to show that poster along with the fact that it was how all gun owners feel today.

It is a good technical poster; it says what he wants to say; it doesn't represent anyone else, and I can say with certainty even without asking him, that he didn't plan for it to represent anyone else - period
(Well, with the possible exception of Mrs. Armoredman.)

If you wish to have it represent you, that's fine. If you don't, then rest assured it never did in the first place.

Far, far too much ado about nothing!

 

[armoredman]

Thank you, springmom. And my loving wife.
MacTec, Hitchikers' Guide to the Universe ain't really a religious tract, but I like it!
I agree with my wife; I don't care what religion you practice or don't practice - you can worship a head of lettuce if you like, but I might snicker when your "god" wilts...

 

[Grizfire]

This thread goes to show that....

you can only please some of the people, some of the time.

although, you can please some of the people, all the time.

you can even please all the people, some of the time.

But you can never please all the people, all the time.

 

[armoredman]

Thank you, PT Barnum.

 

[Mal H]

Actually, that's a paraphrasing of a quote by Abe Lincoln.

 

[Mrs. Armoredman]

Thank you Mr. Admin. He was not trying to tell everyone they have to believe as Me and Mr. A do. I appreciate the input on this thread. That was my Bible just incase anyone wanted to know. There are alot of paper clips in it.

 

[Owens]

Mrs. Armoredman,
The paper clips made me think of this: The Bible that's falling apart usually belongs to someone who isn't.
Owens

 

[rc109a]

Armoredman: I like all the posters. Keep up the good work. It would not make a difference what type of book you put in the hand, someone would be made or dispute it just for an argument (or debat as some have calledit). The point is taken and is very enjoyable. If someone does not like it, then good on them. It is a free country and you have your opinions. No one said you have to post it as your wallpaper or spread it around. You can always click the back button and look at another posting or thread. Why bash someone who has come up with a creative way of expressing their opinion? Many great ideas have sprouted from opinions that others took offense to or thought was stupid. Keep up the good work!