And this is why you don't buy Crapmascus

I'm not a knife maker but that knife is soft. Probably wasn't heat treated correctly.

I'm not saying all Damascus from overseas is garbage. Probably 1% is okay, with the rest being questionable.

There are plenty of places that make Damascus here in the US. It will cost more but the quality control is probably off the charts better.

With a 5 second search.
vegasforge.com

Damascus Billets (Carbon) Archives

Damascus Steel, Carbon Damascus Steel Billets
vegasforge.com vegasforge.com
 
Vegas forge and Alabama damascus are gtg.
I have used both to great success.
heat treat results were spot on
 
Mk-211 said:
heat treated
Click to expand...
:rofl:

It isn't heat treated at all because they don't use steel with enough carbon to be heat treated. It is "decorative" instead of functional, but it is crappy decorative stuff that is going to rust because they use junk steel. They're making knife-like-objects instead of knives.

There's a market since Forged In Fire and the bladesmithing renaissance brought this into the public awareness.
 
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Flat Rock said:
Vegas forge and Alabama damascus are gtg.
I have used both to great success.
heat treat results were spot on
Click to expand...
and Nichols, Devin Thomas, Damasteel are pattern welded steel ("Damascus") producers and there are a variety of bladesmiths that will sell billet that can be used in knives as well.
 
frogfurr said:
Do these pretty folded metals have hardness ratings?
Click to expand...
Not any that you could believe. The problem is this junk is just for appearances, but is sold deceptively as actual knives. They're all over Ebay and the internet and their claims are meaningless.

Real damascus will Rockwell in the 50s and will be 10x the price of the junk Pakistani and Chinese stuff.
 
hso said:
Not any that you could believe. The problem is this junk is just for appearances, but is sold deceptively as actual knives. They're all over Ebay and the internet and their claims are meaningless.

Real damascus will Rockwell in the 50s and will be 10x the price of the junk Pakistani and Chinese stuff.
Click to expand...
yep.
real (actually well made) damascus has a beauty and depth to it too.
this blade is 1084 and 15n20 and hardens just like 1084, so I get HRC 60-61 from it (Alabama Damascus) very repeatably.
2Y0qOEK.jpg
 
BUT you can actually buy blades from reputable Alabama Damascus with real specs for not that much more than the crapmascus.

1697157335352.jpeg
$46
Alabama Damascus Knife Blade
Material = (4) layers 5160, (3) layers 203E, (3) layers 52100, (3) layers 15N20 folded 5 times for 416 layer damascus
Blade = 5/8" x 2-1/2" Long Grind
Overall Length = 5-7/8"
Full Tang
3/32" Scale Holes
Blade has been Precision ground, Laser cut, Hollow ground, Heat-treated to 58-60 Rc, & Etched
This blade just needs a final edge and some handles.


1697157427562.jpeg
$55

Alabama Damascus Knife Blade
Material = (4) layers 5160, (3) layers 203E, (3) layers 52100, (3) layers 15N20 folded 5 times for 416 layer damascus
Blade = 13/16" x 2-1/2"
Overall Length = 6-3/8"
Full Tang
Blade has been Precision ground, Laser cut, Hollow ground, Heat-treated to 58-60 Rc, & Etched
This blade just needs a final edge and some handles.
 
Last edited:
Ok, I got it now I think. Damascus "style" blades that aren't forged or even made of decent steel.

I'm fairly certain this one isn't crapmascus.

p2885747301-5.jpg
 
HKGuns, and all ya'll,

There's one other sort of fake damascus than crapmascus that I'll call fakemascus. Monosteel that has the pattern force etched (or possibly lasererd) onto the blade. Those tend to come out of China since it produces a usable stainless blade that looks like it might be damascus. You can make a blade look like it has a hamon when it doesn't and you can make it look like it is a pattern welded steel using similar surface treatments. They're "embellished" , but they're at least a hardenable stainless steel (usually). The patterns do look "forced" on close examination and if you see more than one of the knives you'll see the pattern duplicated so closely you'll know they're not a natural part of the steel layering. If you use a magnifier to look at the pattern you'll notice that it looks artificial. A pulsed laser is zapping the material as the computer driven pattern is "engraved" into the surface.

View attachment 1697195315085.webp
 

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RA40 said:
The new knife collectors get swept up in the look…
Click to expand...

It’s not just knife collectors that get caught up in this. It’s a driving factor in many decisions people make in life from birth to death. People often wear clothes that are uncomfortable and even impractical just because the way they look, same for cars they drive and even food they eat or drink…

So a crummy knife might be perfect for those that just purchased them for looks. The destroyed knife in the OP is probably still as useful as a Van Gogh painting would be, both equally useless, except for looking at.

Never underestimate the influence of aesthetics on design. “Make it look pretty.” Has come out of the mouth of more people that don’t make things, than from the mouth of those that actually create useful things. Those that don’t create are generally trying to sell them though or buying…
 
hso said:
HKGuns, and all ya'll,

There's one other sort of fake damascus than crapmascus that I'll call fakemascus. Monosteel that has the pattern force etched (or possibly lasererd) onto the blade. Those tend to come out of China since it produces a usable stainless blade that looks like it might be damascus. You can make a blade look like it has a hamon when it doesn't and you can make it look like it is a pattern welded steel using similar surface treatments. They're "embellished" , but they're at least a hardenable stainless steel (usually). The patterns do look "forced" on close examination and if you see more than one of the knives you'll see the pattern duplicated so closely you'll know they're not a natural part of the steel layering. If you use a magnifier to look at the pattern you'll notice that it looks artificial. A pulsed laser is zapping the material as the computer driven pattern is "engraved" into the surface.

View attachment 1175511
Click to expand...
Me and my dad was walking around flea market few years ago and he picked up a knife and asked me what I thought. It was one of these fakemascus you speak of. When I told him it was laser etched and not real damscus the guy selling them spoke up saying they where real. And got kinda snippy. So I picked up another with exact same pattern layout it was a different shape blade but pattern was identical to the one my dad was holding. I asked him if they was real how did he get lucky enough to pull off exact pattern on something that will never be 2 just alike. You might have 2 rain drop patterns or whatever pattern it is but it's like snowflakes there will never ever be 2 that are identical. He got mad told my dad to lay the knife down and that he wasn't doing business with us. We laughed as we walked away and the boothes next to him was laughing as well.
 
jmorris said:
The destroyed knife in the OP is probably still as useful as a Van Gogh painting would be, both equally useless, except for looking at.
Click to expand...
More like it was as "useful" as a printout off the internet of a Van Gogh painting. None of the skill or artisty or uniqueness of the exceptional inspiring beauty of the actual painting, but possibly starting an interest in art that leads to a real appreciation of the effort honing a gift to create something unique.
 
jmorris said:
It’s not just knife collectors that get caught up in this. It’s a driving factor in many decisions people make in life from birth to death. People often wear clothes that are uncomfortable and even impractical just because the way they look, same for cars they drive and even food they eat or drink…

So a crummy knife might be perfect for those that just purchased them for looks. The destroyed knife in the OP is probably still as useful as a Van Gogh painting would be, both equally useless, except for looking at.

Never underestimate the influence of aesthetics on design. “Make it look pretty.” Has come out of the mouth of more people that don’t make things, than from the mouth of those that actually create useful things. Those that don’t create are generally trying to sell them though or buying…
Click to expand...

That's true that the look brings the initial desire. Some will take that in stride and progress into the world of knives while others will find the $ associated with them to be excessive. I knew a collector in passing that bought a lot of these knives. When enlightened he found that for him it was quantity over quality. He continued to spend regular sums to acquire these knives because for him he liked the look and the quantity instead. In the end it is their $ and what pursuit makes them happy is their choice.
 
To be fair...people have been buying "fake" knives and swords since forever.

Like katanas and all the fantasy/SciFi blades for example.

How many Klongon bat'leths do you think have been sold? How many stainless steel katanas are out there hanging on someone's wall?

For the most part, I think the majority of people who buy them know they're not functional blades. And of those who don't realize this, most are likely younger people.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Like katanas and all the fantasy/SciFi blades for example.
Click to expand...

In the fantasy knife world there's a division between "live" or "battle ready" and the "knife/sword like object" wall hanger that manufacturers and dealers use to advertise. Is it always "honest" that a piece is more than just a decorative wall hanger, clearly no, but for the most part they're not passing off wall hangers as usable blades.

These crapmascus and fakemascus pieces are being marketed as "real". THAT is a significant difference from those examples.
 
hso said:
BUT you can actually buy blades from reputable Alabama Damascus with real specs for not that much more than the crapmascus.

View attachment 1175447
$46
Alabama Damascus Knife Blade
Material = (4) layers 5160, (3) layers 203E, (3) layers 52100, (3) layers 15N20 folded 5 times for 416 layer damascus
Blade = 5/8" x 2-1/2" Long Grind
Overall Length = 5-7/8"
Full Tang
3/32" Scale Holes
Blade has been Precision ground, Laser cut, Hollow ground, Heat-treated to 58-60 Rc, & Etched
This blade just needs a final edge and some handles.


View attachment 1175448
$55

Alabama Damascus Knife Blade
Material = (4) layers 5160, (3) layers 203E, (3) layers 52100, (3) layers 15N20 folded 5 times for 416 layer damascus
Blade = 13/16" x 2-1/2"
Overall Length = 6-3/8"
Full Tang
Blade has been Precision ground, Laser cut, Hollow ground, Heat-treated to 58-60 Rc, & Etched
This blade just needs a final edge and some handles.
Click to expand...
Those are bargains if the specs are accurate,
 
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HKGuns said:
Can you clarify for me what crapmascus is?

Damascus blades are indeed forged, but I'm sure you already know that, so this must be something different.
Click to expand...

Crapmascus is faux Damascas-looking or poorly made Damascas knives. It is just a play on words to indicate that they are garbage. They don't hold up to the rigors that a true Dasmascas knife would.
 
At $275 this is a real bargain. It is a good looking knife with a lovely pattern welded steel and it will perform as a knife.

1698085841015.jpeg


Cheap "damascus" knife like object below. Pretty, but no bargain. At $80 it is a ripoff if you actually believe their marketing that it has a hardness of 58-60 HRC and that it will perform like a knife.

1698086048139.png

I bought one of these for $25 last year to just see if they'd improved because it was a much better example than the other crapmascus I'd handled. It did look better and it was better put together, but there were still fit problems you wouldn't expect except on a beginner knife and you could hardly get an edge on it because it was so soft it kept rolling over. When I finally did get an edge it didn't last beyond a couple of cuts on cardboard and I peeled the remaining edge off with a SAK.
At $25 I suspected I was being led to, but at $80 it would be a total ripoff. :fire:
 
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