Another 1858 Remmington question

[anvil_fire]

Hey guys! I have been reading this forum for years but just made an account and this is my first post

Anyway down to business........

I am a 19 year old living in Pennsylvania. In this state, open carry is completely legal over the age of 18. I probably wont do it often, but on hikes and long walks I should like to carry my 1858 Pietta sheriff (it has the .45LC conversion cylinder). He is the question. Heaven forbid I should ever have to use it against a four or two legged bad guy, the standard "cowboy" rounds are a bit anemic. I would not want shot with one, but if I can gain more power safely I would like to. I know that his gun and conversion cylinder are not +P rated by any means, nor can I shoot jacketed bullets. But would something like

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/81...ft-cast-hollow-point-anti-personnel-box-of-20

or

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/15...keith-type-semi-wadcutter-gas-check-box-of-20

Be safe to use? I certainly don't want the cylinder exploding in my hand, nor do I want to ruin the frame on the gun. I am curious because these are rated as "standard pressure" but have considerably great muzzle energy and velocity than cowboy loads.

And if anyone is wondering why I'm choosing a converted 1858 over a Glock or 1911, the law is "18 to carry 21 to buy" :banghead:

 

[Curator]

anvil-fire:

If you read the instructions that came with your conversion cylinder you will see that they suggest "cowboy-level" loads. Yes, they're a bit anemic, but they are LOW pressure. The conversion cylinder is not particularly strong nor if the Remington 1858 frame. While you could probably shoot a few of these more powerful loads in your gun without damaging anything, who knows how many it will take to do just that.

Don't give up on cowboy level loads just because the ballistic tables indicate they are weak, Big 45 caliber bullets don't have to go very fast to be very effective.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

anemic BP loads been killing a lot of people for several hundred years.
it's up to you the shooter to decide if and when to shoot, and to be absolutely sure of your target and shot placement.
I could shoot you with a 20mm cannon ( modern) and if all I did was nick your fingernail. would you claim the load was too anemic to do as intended?

 

[Crawdad1]

How about something like this?

.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch 30 grain Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 1070 ft/s 356 ft-lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch 35 grain Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 1174 ft/s 428 ft-lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch 40 grain Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 1229 ft/s 470 ft-lbs


Compared to something like this.


45 ACP HST 230 grains, 404 ft/lbs 890 fps
45 ACP +P HST 230 grains, 461 ft/lbs 950 fps
45 ACP FMJ 230 grans, 404 ft/lbs 890 fps
45 ACP TMJ 230 grains, 369 ft/lbs 850 fps


Your Remington generating enough power for you or do you need more?

 

[Lafitte]

The cowboy level load is what the gun is rated for and it will do a good job for you.

Lafitte

 

[anvil_fire]

Haha those loads are listed as using a ball and the black powder cylinder. I do understand that they are more powerful than the smokeless cowboy cartridges, but i bought the conversion because i know it will go bang when i want it too My previous experience with black powder was limited, i owned a T/C hawken, granted it was a flintlock, but the reliability was not enough for me to consider it a defensive tool. What about black powder cartridges?

 

[TTv2]

If you want biped defense for a converted .45 Colt c&b, these are the only ones I use:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...5-grain-semi-wadcutter-hp-20-rounds?a=1593149

If you're looking 4 something for animals, I think any of the 250 grain lead bullets will do find, so long as they're under 1000 fps. Ur right on the cusp with that 255 bullet. If you want an alternative that's not as hot as that, check these out:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...colt-rnfpl-250-grain-ammo-50-rounds?a=1587338

 

[Sistema1927]

The .455 Webley pushes a 265 grain .45 caliber bullet at only 650 fps. Last I checked nobody complained about it having anemic ballistics.

 

[Stormson]

As DD4lifeusmc pointed out... Its all about SHOT PLACEMENT. Nothing more, nothing less. Never has been and never will be.

A .22 short in the heart muscle is GOING to kill you almost instantly. A .44Mag to the small toe? Yeah not so much....

Those cowboy loads certainly arnt screaming hot. Nor are they anything to laugh at, as long as YOU do YOUR part.

If you do, I seriously doubt that said bad guy is going to fuss too much over the "anemic" paper ballistics of the round that sent him off to final Judgment.

As for me? 35grs of 777 out of the BP cylinder is fine for my needs. I have never ONCE had a failure to fire, even after MONTHS of storage, from a properly prepared cylinder with tight fitting caps and correct sealing of the ball.

I should mention that when I first took up this sport I was totally against relying on a C&B for defense work. Didnt mind keeping loaded around the house just in case they where closer at hand, but I thought a modern semi auto to be the ONLY real choice for protection. After gaining some experience (like seeing them go off time after time after long term storage) I have rethought that position. I still PREFER a modern well built handgun for such situation... But I would not at ALL feel outgunned if i ever NEEDED to rely on ol' smokey...

 

[jgh4445]

A case full off FFg or FFFg under a 250 gr Keith..anemic? I think not.

 

[BigBore45]

Yeah the most your gonna get out of that combo is with black powder substitute loaded in a 45 colt case with mag primer. Still can run a 250 grain at 900+ fps. That's above 45 acp+P loads.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Concur that shot placement is everything. A hit with a 22 > a miss with a 44.

 

[alexander45]

Most of the "cowboy loads" are just regular saami spec stuff pretty much the same as what was taking down horses in the 1870s

 

[rodwha]

My Ruger Old Army and Pietta Remington NMA both shoot flawlessly once I switched to Rem #10 caps.

 

[Ifishsum]

Black powder .45 colt cartridges pack a good punch at pressure levels that should be safe for your gun. I load my own with 35-36 grains of Goex FFFg (as much as the case will hold) behind a 255gr bullet and they certainly seem hotter than any of my smokeless loads - but I have not run them over the chrono to verify. I'm also shooting them in a modern SAA repro, not a conversion but black powder should be safer than any uploaded smokeless loads. I don't really know how commercially loaded BP cartridges like Black Dawge compare. Midway also sells Ten-X BPC 250gr that are loaded with 777, a cleaner BP substitute.

 

[Hellgate]

Just make sure the conversion cylinder rotates and fires with extreme reliability. A centerfire cartridge is much more reliable than a percussion cap regardless of other's experience. The 45LC has plenty of stoppability.

 

[Crawdad1]

Those loads I listed under 45 ACP are NOT 'cowboy action' loads. They are just off the shelf 45 ACP cartridges. See how powerful that Remington can be? They may be sleek and elegant but they pack a tremendous punch.

You can always reload using black powder or Trip 7 in cartridges.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

.45 Colt cowboy loads are not as anemic as you might think. For example, Black Hills .45 Colt cowboy loads are a 250 grain hard cast round nose flat point bullet at about 750 FPS. It develops more foot pounds of muzzle energy than the .455 Webley Mk.VI service load, which was considered perfectly suitable for defense across the British Empire.

Further, the Black Hills .45 Colt load will penetrate a seasoned pine log about a foot in diameter from about 10 yards.

 

[rodwha]

Was it 4 or 7" of pine board that was considered acceptable?

 

[Branko_D]

If you're interested in testing similar to what was done during the time period, here's an interesting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4f4UMX_ewA

I think that one pine board was considered sufficient during the day, but not sure where I read it. At any rate, pretty much all the ballistic gel tests I've seen using .454 round ball and 30 grains put it around 22-24 inches of penetration. The .44 caliber revolvers were quite good for their time; since there's virtually no deformation of the ball and energy isn't spend on that, they penetrate very well even with relatively modest velocities.

 

[Crawdad1]

That guy always makes great videos. I was surprised that with only 15 grains of powder that '61 Navy blew through a pine board, enough to kill a man.

 

[kBob]

The Pine board penetration was from a military requirement originally to judge effects of shell fragments.

The ability to penitrate a "one inch" pine board ( as in a 1x4 which is neither ) indicated the ability to cause a "militarily significant wound" meaning a fragment of a size, and weight and velocity that could penetrate the board that hit an un armored human would cause a wound that would require their removal from the battlefield.

Folks immediately decided this was a good indicator of pistol and revolver cartridge performance and decided "More is better" and so baffle boxes were made and cartridge performance compared by the number of board penetrated.

Smith's Pistols and Revolvers has board numbers for most of the cartridges listed from those earlier years when it was published.

Interestingly some have taken the baffle box into the 21st century by substituting water filled plastic freezer zip lock bags for boards. They use a set formula to translate the number of bags penetrated into equivilant penetration of gelatin. The first of these I saw a report on was called by its builder a "Fackler Box" and he had it featured in Dr. Fackler's American Wound Ballistics whatever journal.

-kBob

 

[MAKster]

Is it safe to shoot cowboy smokeless powder cartridges in these conversion guns? I would think that even cowboy smokeless rounds have way more pressure than a black powder cartridge.

 

[44 Dave]

In a .44 or .45 a full 36ish gr. of b.p. has more recoil than the factory cowboy loads I have shot but I am sure the pressure curve for b.p. is way different.

 

[jmar]

Is it safe to shoot cowboy smokeless powder cartridges in these conversion guns? I would think that even cowboy smokeless rounds have way more pressure than a black powder cartridge.

No, they are typically only meant for black powder.
Edit: actually they can shoot really weak smokeless rounds, i still wouldn't trust it, blackpowder has a lower pressure curve so you can deal more damage with less risk. don't really see the point in it.