Anti gun consequences of Paris attack

[Snejdarek]

Since about 2 years, there is a mayor push by left parties for outlawing these 3 types again because "nobody needs them for hunting", "do you want to make war against deer?", "these guns are constructed for killing" etc., and some officials from the hunting association supported these ridiculous statements (and the hunting associations are very influencial in the political process).

You need to change the perception.

It is not about hunting. It is not about sport. It is not about collecting.

It is about liberty and self defense.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

Of course, we know that. The problem is - as I think we have discussed before - the general population in Austria has a different perspective on these things. There are very few antis, but most people have a "don't know, don't care"-type of approach on firearms. They accept arguments like hunting, sports shooting and collecting, but mention firearm ownership as a civil liberty or anything like that, they won't follow you.
It really doesn't help, that only the far right party kind of supports firearm ownership (but also abandoned us on things like assault weapons carry permits etc.) and many average citizens now associate firearm ownership either with being a right wing nut or an elitist hunter.

It is really really sad, but so many people let themselves be manipulated so easily by idiotic politicians and journalists. I had multiple people trying to explain to me, that an Interordonance R94 (free to buy at 18 years in Austria) can be converted into a full auto AK by anyone at home and therefore we need to ban them immediately after some politician talked about it on TV...

 

[danez71]

Thanks Snej and Roscoe for your thoughtful replies.


"poacher guns"... LOL... they'll make up anything to demonize a gun.

Once they are able to effectively demonize them, they get public support because the politicians portray that they're saving/protecting the public from those demons. And people always want to be protected.

 

[Snejdarek]

There is a confession I have to make.

I have never owned a rifle and I shot them just a few times. I live in the center of Prague where having a car is more of a nuisance than any help with our excellent public transport - both in the city as well as regards railways nationwide. However all the ranges in the city are pistols only and all the out-of-town ranges are quite far from railway stations. Hence I sticked with pistols.

Now I have had a car for the past half-a-year, but with little time on my hands, getting a rifle still remained low priority.

Well, then the EU Gun Ban passed through the EU Council like butter yesterday. Estonians and other Baltics chickened out. Swedes and Finns chickened out. Austrians chickened out.

Only Czechs and Poles voted against.

It should be noted that the vote was passed on the anniversary of Lidice Massacre.



Well, I have remedied my mistake today:



Now the question is, what will be next? AR 15 or CZ 805?

 

[barnbwt]

I now understand why the adjective Dutch in the english language most always refers to something bad.

I laughed out loud, after realizing this is somewhat true with our vernacular

We won't say no. We will find a way to say "but of course" and do otherwise. We were occupied by Austria for 300 years and they went all genocidal on us, and yet here we are. We were occupied by Germans and they went all genocidal on our national elites, and yet here we are. We had Soviet-sponsored communist puppet dictatorship for 40 years... you know where I am going to with this.

OK, true enough, fair enough, like I said, I know you folks kind of know your way around living through these arrangements. I'm just curious if the EU's bluff could be called. Probably have to wait a few weeks to see what the Tommies and Tonies do, but it just seems silly for Brussels to get all power-grabby at this time (when they don't even have their budding little Fourth Reich EU army online). Especially on an issue with so little practical impact as a civilian gun ban, but potentially major local blowback (either in demonstrations/resistance, or lawlessness/noncompliance)

Meanwhile our government will be finding ways to flex whatever EU gun legislation is coming our way if not for any other reason than because they don't want hundreds of thousands of legal guns entering the black market.

Tears in my eyes; I wish to hell our politicians had this much sense.

It is sad, but many hunters have sold us out in the past, and I fear many of them will again, as long as they are not affected.

Hunting isn't really about the gun, in the end. Now, if the proposal were paired with a moratorium on hunting a popular variety of stag or boar...

It is about liberty and self defense.

Europe has a very diverse, but uniformly mixed (and mostly toward the bad side) history with popular uprisings. America really hasn't been exposed to this, most certainly not in the modern era (ours is mixed mostly toward the bad side also, but mostly forgotten). There are real and practical reasons why some of these nations don't even want the specter of armed revolt hanging around. Doesn't matter that it's as silly as disbanding the army to avoid war (granted, much of Europe has done exactly this) since the feeling is immediately gratifying.

Now the question is, what will be next? AR 15 or CZ 805?

No question at all; BREN. I'd get the CZ806, though --mo' betta'. You folks make some very fine machines, and have since the very beginning of chemically-propelled lead. UK59 or ZB37 if you have the option, though

TCB

 

[Snejdarek]

I'm just curious if the EU's bluff could be called.

That's where you are wrong I am afraid. The European Council that just voted on the measure is comprised of national governments representatives.

Clearly if there was any meaningful opposition to the EU Gun Ban in countries like Sweden, Estonia or Austria, their Ministers would not vote in favor.

 

[vaupet]

Lets hope we can convince MEP that this lawmaking is absurd, undemocratic, expensive and counter-productive.

I'm invited to a meeting next saturday involving all organisations in Belgium concerned with private possession and commerce in firearms, including FNH.

It will be about our strategy.

If there are any members involved here who have contact persons in their countries, please let me know
We'll need every bit of help we can on this one.

 

[danez71]

It should be noted that the vote was passed on the anniversary of Lidice Massacre.

Shameful. I'm part German..... but not that part. Horrible, horrible, horrible


As you can see in the thread about 'How can we help California?' many people her talk a good game of supporting our 2A with great resolve but find any excuse to turn their back on their fellow Americans.

All of them, at minimum, could write their political representatives at the federal level to support CA and other anti gun states.



I would like to say, 'I don't know how to support you.'

I don't have money to spare as I'm fighting in my own back yard.

However, If you think I could help by writing or somehow spreading the word or something...., Please PM me.


I am not one to say, 'only the victim can help them self'.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

One small step in the right direction was done in an Austrian court today: the judge called to an end for the de facto ban on new carry permits!

Last year, two decisions in court ended the issuing of carry permits to hunters and off-duty police officers (the last two groups which before had any chance of getting one) - the police won back their right today.
The court reasoned, that due to the increased risk of terrorist attacks, carry permits for policemen not only benefit their individual safety but also the safety of the general public. Important for that decision was a report on the paris attacks done by the ministry of interior which - surprise, surprise - came to the conclusion, that armed off duty police officers on site could have had a beneficial influence and reduced the number of deaths.

 

[Snejdarek]

The court reasoned, that due to the increased risk of terrorist attacks, carry permits for policemen not only benefit their individual safety but also the safety of the general public. Important for that decision was a report on the paris attacks done by the ministry of interior which - surprise, surprise - came to the conclusion, that armed off duty police officers on site could have had a beneficial influence and reduced the number of deaths.

I must say that I am happy I live in post-communist country in this regard.

This kind of double standard would not fly with Czech courts.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

I must say that I am happy I live in post-communist country in this regard.

This kind of double standard would not fly with Czech courts.

For our courts, this is a huge step forward, as the law itself kind of implies that double standard.
In Austria, you have to prove to the court, that you are in greater danger than the average citizen and can fight that danger with a firearm effectively. A policeman working in an organized crime unit applied for a carry permit based on this section of the weapons act, providing multiple written threats to him and his family by members of organized crime. The judge denied his application, stating that the threats are "too vague" and "he is only in danger at his home" (where is allowed to keep his firearms without a carry permit) - which became a precedence for all other policemen applying for a permit. The judge today did nothing more than correct that ruling so the law is followed.

Of course, it is an awful thing, that the law itself implies the double standard, and we are fighting these passages in court again and again, sadly it is very unlikely to succeed at the moment. But for courts and the ministry to acknowledge, that armed private persons can be beneficial in such circumstances, it is one step in the right direction

 

[Snejdarek]

A policeman working in an organized crime unit applied for a carry permit based on this section of the weapons act, providing multiple written threats to him and his family by members of organized crime. The judge denied his application, stating that the threats are "too vague" and "he is only in danger at his home" (where is allowed to keep his firearms without a carry permit) - which became a precedence for all other policemen applying for a permit.

That's just so wrong. And awful.

 

[Snejdarek]

This carplate stickers are now free and obligatory with gun purchase in most shops in the country.



(This is what a standard plate looks like: )

 

[RoscoeBryant]

Nice - but would it be legal to actually put it on the plate?

 

[Tirod]

Where did the guns come from?

Apparently the ATF ran the numbers and they were traced back to the last known owner in Phoenix AR. He was also in possession of two unregistered full auto firearms BUT he was NOT prosecuted and the agents were even told not to get the owner angry over taking the full auto guns because he might go to the press over it.

Over the ATF doing their job - or because he was walking guns from Fast and Furious? There is a strong suspicion of the latter - you and I would be sitting in jail with our lawyer promising to come talk the next time he was around. This guy was let off completely.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...paris-terrorist-attacks-came-phoenix-arizona/

 

[barnbwt]

That's just so wrong. And awful.

And probably a good sign that the judge has been corrupted in some way by organized crime. Very long history of moves like this in the US and across the world for the purposes of leaving disarmed those who might oppose mafias or political machines.

As far as the ATF; we may now have evidence of their criminal complicity showing up at not only the murder of a federal agent as well as numerous Mexican mass-murders, but now two separate terrorist attacks spanning the globe (France's being rather 'significant' in scale, no less)

Query; at what point will we start being called a state sponsor of terrorism by foreign powers?

TCB

 

[old lady new shooter]

For our courts, this is a huge step forward, as the law itself kind of implies that double standard.
In Austria, you have to prove to the court, that you are in greater danger than the average citizen and can fight that danger with a firearm effectively. A policeman working in an organized crime unit applied for a carry permit based on this section of the weapons act, providing multiple written threats to him and his family by members of organized crime. The judge denied his application, stating that the threats are "too vague" and "he is only in danger at his home" (where is allowed to keep his firearms without a carry permit) - which became a precedence for all other policemen applying for a permit. The judge today did nothing more than correct that ruling so the law is followed.

Of course, it is an awful thing, that the law itself implies the double standard, and we are fighting these passages in court again and again, sadly it is very unlikely to succeed at the moment. But for courts and the ministry to acknowledge, that armed private persons can be beneficial in such circumstances, it is one step in the right direction

Are you telling me Austrian sheep farmers don't keep a shotgun in case a wolf attacks their flock?

 

[Snejdarek]

Nice - but would it be legal to actually put it on the plate?

See, that is the reason why any Czech government will fight the EUGunBan nail and teeth notwithstanding what standpoint they take personally on gun control.

In countries like Germany and Austria the politicians think along this line "we will make guns illegal and people will surrender them."

Here they think along the line "why does the EU want all Czech legal firearms entering the black market?"

Given that the Ministry of Interior estimates that between 50-80% of owners will not surrender their guns, I think that legality of striking the EU flag on the car plate is something nobody could be bothered with.

(Not to mention that basically ALL cops are pro gun which right now makes them anti-EU, here is an article with chief of nationwide anti-terror SWAT unit: http://zpravy.aktualne.cz/zahranici...t-nemuzem/r~cbe51888322511e6a3e5002590604f2e/ The title reads: "We can't be everywhere, people are not sheep, public needs to be able to defend self with firearms".

Apparently the ATF ran the numbers and they were traced back to the last known owner in Phoenix AR.

Given the number of cheap and available guns in Balkans, Ukraine, Libya, I just can't understand why would someone go through the pain of getting one from US.

Are you telling me Austrian sheep farmers don't keep a shotgun in case a wolf attacks their flock?

I don't know what the rules in Austria are, but in my country we have about 20 wolves total, they are protected and shooting one can very well lead not only to losing guns, but also jail time.

On the other hand the government pays for each sheep killed by a protected animal (which would be also bear - those don't really live here, just sometimes cross border from Slovakia for a couple of weeks before going back).

 

[Aikibiker]

Wish they would include those little magnet things with CZ weapons purchased here in the USA. They are rather succinct.

 

[Ignition Override]

Tirod: Days or maybe weeks after the Paris massacres the (US) "Wall Street Journal" had an article with a different source for the full-auto AK-47s.

It stated that they had originally been sold in Slovakia as inoperative 'prop' (demo.) guns.
Apparently holes had been drilled into the chamber or barrel in order to prevent actual use. The concern was that no (liquid) metal had been poured into the chamber of the available guns as a prevention.

Somebody in the article said that the holes had been plugged in order to have operational guns.
Did anybody else read that article in the WSJ or elsewhere?

 

[RoscoeBryant]

No. But lucky for the sheep farmers, most of the wolves in Austria have already been killed by hunters in the 19th century. There is only a little population left in the southern part of the country.

@Snejdarek: how did you get this notion from my question? And if our government thought the way you described it, they must bee extremely stupid. We had a ban on pump action shotguns in the 1990s - about 60-80.000 have been sold to private individuals before the ban, and about 2.000 were actually turned in. The compliance rate was below 5%...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Are you telling me Austrian sheep farmers don't keep a shotgun in case a wolf attacks their flock?

There aren't any wolves in Australia -- almost all Australian native mammals are marsupials. There are feral dogs, Dingos, who came over with the Aborigines

 

[barnbwt]

In countries like Germany and Austria the politicians think along this line "we will make guns illegal and people will surrender them."

Here they think along the line "why does the EU want all Czech legal firearms entering the black market?"

To be fair, it's not like the Germans' assumption is wrong; confiscation was effective in disarming Jews/etc during the Third Reich, and once liberated, confiscation was again effective at the hands of the Allied Forces (there are still a ton of old confiscated guild shotgun bring-backs for sale on Gunbroker to this day; not sure how they don't qualify as stolen goods). The Germanic cultures have been lawful & obedient to authority to a fault, historically.

But then you have the former Soviet states (and others), where subverting the rule of law was the only way to survive for decades (if not centuries in some places), if I understand correctly. That's why you had the old jokes about 'oiling the garden' and all that, and why you are so reticent to see your weapons made illegal (again)...after all, you were just able to take them out of hiding 20-30 years ago!

I suppose that kind of pragmatism is a useful virtue to maintain, even if it is rather depressing that it might ever be necessary. In the States, we've had the unprecedented luxury of not having to live under such a cruel regime, but for very isolated incidents, so the whole "Irish Democracy" thing and its effect on society here is a scary unknown variable, rapidly coming into focus for many of us.

"Blasé in the face of tyranny" raises a lot of conflicting emotions in Americans, but I suppose it's the only way to realistically approach life at some point.

TCB

 

[danez71]

Originally said by Snejdarek

In countries like Germany and Austria the politicians think along this line "we will make guns illegal and people will surrender them."

You can add a vlak load of politicians in the USA to that list.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Time.com/how-europes-terrorists-get-their-guns
Naina Bajekal and Vivienne Walt, "How Europe's Terrorists Get Their Guns", TIME.

Apparently, EU cannot control the illegal trade in black market military guns because of the "no borders within EU" policy of free travel, free trade, so they will make a show of "doing something" by clamping down on the legal market in legal guns.

The one gun allegedly traced in Phoenix in some connection to Paris appears to be a distraction. "An ATF spokesman, Corey Ray, at the agency’s Washington D.C. headquarters told Judicial Watch that “no firearms used in the Paris attacks have been traced” by the agency." The report of the ATF ROI makes it sound the ATF did not want the purchaser of the gun who resold it speaking to the public.

Added: the guns actually recovered at the scene of the shooting had been bought as deactivated in Europe and brought privately across several national "boundaries" and reactivated in France.