Antique or Browned barrels!

[Old Dragoon]

You can find Hacker Martins browning solution in I believe Foxfire # 6 the Foxfire series dealing with ML rigles and pistols. His stock stain is in there too.
I think you can get the Foxfire series of books (paperback) from Amazon.com.

His solution and stain work! I used them 35 years ago. Might be hard to get all the chemicals now, but then I could get them all from the nearest druggist.

 

[Plink]

Dixie, you can use any number of different mixes. Vinegar works, vinegar and salt, salt water, etc. The rust browning solutions give the most even and predictable results though, and I highly recommend using them.

The funny thing about rust browning is that while it's actually rust, it also helps prevent future rust! It leaves a thin oxide layer as part of the surface of the metal. This layer soaks up oil like a sponge and protects the steel underneath it. Proper rust brown (or rust blue, my favorite!) is actually more durable than any hot bluing!

 

[Tinker2]

Proper rust brown (or rust blue, my favorite!) is actually more durable than any hot bluing!

??? More info on that please.


Tinker2

 

[DixieTexian]

I used vinegar to take the bluing off, and it left a little layer of rust. However, this came off when I rubbed it down with bore butter. How would you go about getting a layer of deep brown that is durable without buying commercial browning solutions? I tried searching Google, but there are way too many results about Browning Firearmes.

 

[Plink]

Tinker, the difference between rust browning and rust bluing is boiling the metal to convert the iron oxide into hydrated iron oxide. I'm no chemist, but it turns the oxide a pleasing dark blue/black. You can do it with LMF solution but I've never tried. I use Mark Lee express blue for that. You heat the metal, apply the solution and it rusts. You boil the metal and card off the loose rust. It leaves behind a light grey color. After enough repetitions (8-10) it will have darkened to the most beautiful satin blue you've ever seen! It's the same finish they use on fine European doubles.

Dixie, using vinegar requires humidity and repetitions like regular rust browning. The humidity allows it to bite into the metal enough to create a stain, otherwise it just wipes off as you mentioned. It gives a more golden brown apparently. I believe this is what Austin & Halleck used on their mountain guns as they are golden brown and smelled strongly of vinegar when I received them.

There are several threads on browning solutions, including homemade at http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php?referral/9048/
There's also a lot of great information on homemade stains and wood finishes there also. Check the gun builders section. I have made some of the vinegar based wood stains and they are really gorgeous. I don't think I'll be buying stain ever again!

 

[Tinker2]

Plink

My question is more.

“is actually more durable than any hot bluing!”

I have had all three. Assume please that what I have
is all the same in quality of work.

If one is more durable, I could not say.

I don’t shoot as much as I would like, so your experience
and opinion is appreciated.
Also is this durability just a blackpowder thing or also
smokeless powder too?

Thanks mike


Tinker2

 

[Plink]

Tinker, the durability aspect has to do with the depth of the finish in the metal. Hot bluing is a very thin oxide layer. That's why you can get a shiny polished hot blue finish. The thinner the finish, the easier it is to wear through it.

The rust processes are deeper and etch lightly into the metal. This is why they are all satin finishes. Even if you attempt to rust blue highly polished metal, it turns out with a silky, satin sheen in the end. Being deeper and thus more porous, they can hold more oil to resist corrosion better also.

Of course there are many variations on the rust blue/brown method, and some are more durable than others. My experiences have been mostly with LMF, Mark Lee and Pilkington's.

This isn't specific to black powder guns, but to the metal finish itself. I like to rust blue modern guns because it resists holster wear better, holds up in the field better, and well, it just looks better to me.

 

[DixieTexian]

Well, I did a google search looking for ways to brown a barrel using vinegar and salt or whatever, but the most relevant result I got was this thread. Anybody got a step by step process for us newbies using stuff that you might have around the house?

 

[Plink]

Dixie, I'd suggest using the search feature at muzzleloadingforum.com to look through posts in the gun builders section. There are a lot of posts on various browning methods, including homemade ones. You can also ask them for directions. There's some extremely knowledgeable folks there and they enjoy sharing info like that. It was from them that I got the tips on what to try.


I've tinkered with vinegar browning while trying to darken and even out the finish on Austin & Halleck rifles. I haven't done enough of it to offer much advice though. Basically, it's just a matter of degreasing the metal (Simple Green works fine), applying the vinegar and hanging the metal in a warm humid area until it has a thin layer of fine rust. Wipe off the powdery rust residue, rinse in hot water and reapply the vinegar. Repeat the humidity/carding/reapplying until you get a nice even finish. Rinse in baking soda water to neutralize, rinse in hot or boiling water to wash off all the chemicals, and oil well. I'd experiment on scraps a time or two first.

I didn't manage to get the color to match the rifles, but I haven't had the time to experiment much with the process either.

 

[BP Tess]

What happens to the inside of the barrel during these processes? I'm assuming that rust will also form inside there too! Should you plug up the barrel somehow or just keep brushing the rust out between dippings.

 

[Old Dragoon]

Plug both ends of the bbl. an oversize lead ball will work or Dowel rod stubs or fill the ends with wax,

 

[Tinker2]

Plink

Rust blue looks better to me too.

The use of hot salt bluing, was to me for economy of time
and money. The type of finish that I liked with the hot
salts is also the silky satin sheen.

I have used Belgian blue, the old rust blue type, and some
home brew stuff.

How did the LMF, Mark Lee and Pilkington's compare to each
other ? would you recommend one over the others?

Thanks

Tinker2

 

[mykeal]

Inside the barrel...

Old Dragoon is right as regards any of the cold processes, but barrel plugs are not simple if you're using a hot process. Differential expansion and the effects of the heat on the plug are an issue.

I don't use plugs in either hot or cold processing and have had no problems with rusting the inside of the barrel. I'm quite careful, of course, not to get any solution inside the barrel.

However, I would imagine that simply swabbing the bore with a nylon brush and rust remover would get rid of any surface issues, and the impregnated layer is not a problem.

 

[Plink]

Tess, there are a couple of ways to protect the bore. Plugging is easy enough. I use silicone plugs and they stay put through the boiling if you push them in tight enough.

For rust browning, where you won't be boiling it constantly, you can just oil the bore and then be careful not to dribble any browning solution in it. The humidity used for rusting won't effect it in the short few hours it'll be exposed to it. After your final rinsing, dry thoroughly and oil and it's all good.

Austin & Halleck browned their bores as part of the process, yet they have some of the finest, slickest bores of any factory guns I've ever dropped a bore light into.

Tinker, I prefer LMF for browning over any of the hot browns I've tried. It comes out more even and nicer looking. It's easier to use too, at least to me.

As for bluing, Pilkington's gave nice results but it's a slow rust blue method. I tried Mark Lee on a whim and got almost identical results, but it's much faster. Both are very durable so there's no clear winner there. I don't mind slow rust browning, but since rust bluing has a boiling step for each repetition, I prefer the hot rusting method. Getting the tank boiling each time is a hassle I can do without. I think I'd give a slight edge to Pilkington's for beauty in strong sunlight, but they're so close that it'd be hard to call.

One thing I can definately recommend if you decide to rust blue. Use deionized water for boiling. I couldn't find it locally in stores, so I bought a cheap deionizer that's used for making clean water for aquariums. I think I paid $35 for it and it makes 50 gallons or so before needing new cartridges.

There's no doubt that the rust finishes are more durable, and in my opinion, far more beautiful. This does come at a cost though. They're very labor intensive to do properly. Rust bluing is a very expensive finish to have done for you, but very inexpensive to do yourself.

 

[rifle]

Some people swear by the "urine" or uric acid method. Go out in the shed and take a wizz on yer degreased metal they say! Old time browning solution they say. If someone wants to use something around the house I guess that would do it. Drink a few beers and get to browning the guns. I've never tried it since I get really good results with LMF browning/degreaser or Belgian Blue or Classic American Rust blue or Mark Lee products. All sold at Brownells. The Belgian blue makes a good black on cap&ball cylinders but leaves a real pleasing "patina" plum brown on barrels. Must be a different alloy used fer the barrels. I saw a rifle builder use the "Clorox" browning/aging method on a rifle barrel. Used an aluminum gutter off the house to boil a barrel in clorox water until it was a rusted mess and then carded it and it looked 150 years old. Plugged the barrel with hardwood dowels shaped and fit and then coated with shelac and once dried driven in the muzzle and nipple hole. Hershel House was the builder and the method was in his video about building the Hawken rifle. One method I like to use to age a cap&baller and give the antique look is to use cold blue. Gives the "aged but cared for" look. Mix 44/40 cold blue with a third or fourth diluted with Birchwood Casey cleaner degreaser. Swipe it on the degreased gun with steel wool a coupla times then use a soft cotton flannel folded into a inch size square and saturate it with the solution so it's damp(not overly wet) and play with the application to smooth and uniform it. The metal will turn dark blue. All metal doesn't turn blue. Some turns blackish blue being mostly black. Since the cold blue isn't extremely durable the gun will wear and give that look of a charcoal blued worn finish. At first the finish looks like a custom charcoal blue job. Perfectly uniform and beautiful. It wears kinda well but not like a hot caustic salts blue. Thing is...it can be left to wear and look antique with that blue/grey gun metal look or,almost as easy as wiping the gun off to clean it,refinished with the solution of 44/40 cold blue mixed with 1/3rd or 1/4th Birchwood Casey cleaner degreaser. I think it gives the look of an old Colt that was charcoal blued or Carbonia blued and aged for a hundred years of decent care without the excessive "rust". You know how some well cared for antiques look. There's a range of "antique" to guns from the blue and gun metal grey silvery look all the way to the other end of the spectrum where the gun is a piece of rusty crap. I've blacked guns with the "old motor oil" method. Heat the parts red hot and quench them in old motor oil. That burns carbon on the metal and hardens the metal too. Cylinders probably shouldn't be done that way but barrels and frames could be.

 

[Plink]

Rifle, it's funny that you should mention urine browning. I actually "browned" a stainless steel AMT .380 Backup that way once. The little gun used to eject cases back into my face. In one magazine full, it landed one in my shirt pocket, on top of my shooting glasses, and lodged one on top of my ear. After a burned nipple, singed eyebrow and reddened ear, I threw it down in disgust, and well... A few weeks later, I got to feeling guilty knowing that if someone discovered my desert shooting spot, they might find the little gun and do who knows what with it, so I went to rescue it. After cleaning and oiling, it has taken on a nice, permanent brown. So, it works even for stainless.

I can almost see how browning was invented. A mountain man takes a shot at a charging bear with his flinter. It misfires! After getting stomped and mauled, the mountain man throws down his rifle in disgust and hoses it down and heads off to heal up. Next season he stumbles across it, cleans it up and voila.

On a serious note, I'd highly suggest against heating the barrel red hot and quenching. That hardens the steel and can cause it to become brittle. Softer metals are more resilient and less likely to shatter under the stress of firing. When a soft barrel lets go, it splits. When a hardened one lets go, it fragments. The barrel makers use softer steel for a reason.

 

[Tinker2]

Plink & Rifle

I have read that the old Remington arms used that way
to blue their barrels.

The wizz way?

Tinker2

 

[rifle]

I'm going to try to post a pic here....pic fer BP Tess..... Here goes..... <a href="http://tinypic.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.tinypic.com/3yw7mok.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a> Looks like it doesn't work.
Plink.....mentioning barrels heated and quenched....I was thinkin Cap&ball barrels....an alloy that is pretty soft and I doubt if one of those barrels can get too hard by quenching. I think they are made of that alloy called leadloy. Some kind of alloy steel that has lead in it to make it real "machinable". hee hee I'd say yer right though to avoid heating red and quenching. Why tempt fate. I guess I should retract that statement I made about oil blacking guns....unless one were to temper afterwards by heating to 700 degrees and letting the part air cool. Of course if you don;t have a furnace then how can you heat to 700? hee hee You can't use the color spectrum without polishing the metal and that would take the black off that was just put on. haa haa

 

[rifle]

I still can't get that danged picture to come up. I used tiny pic to post the pic. What's the deal? Anybody? What am I doing wrong? I'll post the pics at Voyforums Blackpowder Message board www.voy.com/60048/ then and if anyone(BP Tess) wants to see an antiqued Remington go there to see it. Thanks Buds and Budettes HEY.....IT WORKED! Whatta know. I'm a computer geek now.

 

[rifle]

The other side.Wrong pic. That's a couple of simple tools I posted for a guy wanting to know how to peen hand springs into hands. I tried to cancell it but it keeps coming back. Anybody know how to cancell a picture?

 

[rifle]

The other side of the antiqued Remington. Whew! This computer stuff....

 

[BP Tess]

Nice pics y'all. Thanks "Rifle" on those last ones. The darker Brown really gives off a nice look. I think I may have to buy more guns so I can do different finishes to them! Decisions...decisions...

 

[rifle]

Thanks fer looking and compliment on the darker brown BPTess. That is no where near the actual dark brown from other "browning solution". The brown on the rifle barrels and furniture(trigger guards and butt plates and all) that I've done is perfectly uniform and a real chocolate brown. Remingtons look cool real dark. I saw an antigue Remington that sat in a mining shack in the wilds of Arizona for lots of decades. It had a fine grained rust covering it that was dark.
The Remington in the pics is my wifes. I did a trigger job to it to rid the creep and crunch from it and a lighter trigger pull fer the 90lbs aka "Junk Yard Dog) raised the front sight to hit POA with brass that can be seen good, renewed the forcing cone a little longer and wider for the slight looseness to the bolt and made sure it was concentric to the bore with a reamer and pilots,rehardened the trigger and hammer,freshed up the muzzle crown to make sure it was concentric with the bore(important for accuracy) opened the rear sight some and angled the sides of the "V" so light is not reflected back at the shooter from the sun, and probably some other stuff like tinker the timing and correcr the alignment of the chambers to the bore and ream the chambers to swag the ball the same size as the barrel groove diameter. Anywhooo....the gun looks old and used but....it's a shooter. haa haa haa The carved sun and rose on one side and the moon and stars on the other side of the grips was done by a guy that wanted me to get him started in raised carving. He did alright fer his first attempt. Yer right BP Tess. You need more guns to craft on. Cap&ball revolvers are addictive you know.

 

[Plink]

I think I may have to buy more guns so I can do different finishes to them!

Tess, that's the spirit!

Rifle, that finish looks great. It just smacks of well kept age.

 

[rifle]

Thanks Plink fer the compliment. Smacks of well kept age? Can't say the same about myself.