Antique shotgun- what is it?

[fatelk]

A friend brought over an old shotgun he inherited. It seems to be some kind of convertible cartridge/ percussion gun. A 16 gauge shotgun shell will chamber except for the rim, and it has firing pins as well as hammers. There are two steel "cartridges" stored in the buttstock that chamber also. One barrel is smoothbore, the other has "straight rifling"??

I've never seen one like this before. The barrels appear to be damascus, and I told him not to try to shoot it, even if he could. He said some great uncle bought it in Europe eons ago.

 

[AStone]

what is it?

Beautiful, at least.

 

[SDC]

A very interesting piece; the forearm should let you take the gun down if you spin the opening lever one way, and the plate below it the other way, letting you see any proofs below the chambers. This gun pretty clearly dates from the period of transition between percussion and cartridge guns, late enough that they could see the clear advantages of cartridges, but not yet willing to give up the "do it yourself" guarantee of loose black powder and percussion caps. I can't make out the makers name on the barrel rib, though; is there any way you can get a clearer photo? The trigger-guard styling makes me think it's likely Belgian, and straight "rifling" was a fad for some time before it was fully understood what it did and why.

 

[Sav .250]

Don`t have a clue but that is one, old shotgun. I would not fire that piece
under any circumstance. Keep digging for information.

 

[Jim Watson]

Wow, a real transitional, it looks like it would shoot pinfire or centerfire cartridges; and the percussion adapters.

 

[fatelk]

A few more photos. The name is hard to make out; something like "E Bertard" as close as I can tell.

He says that the family story is that some wealthy uncle way back had it custom made in Belgium when he was in Europe, but he didn't know when.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Those two 'catridges' are inserts to let this old gun use percussion caps and black powder. One of the nipples is missing.

I'd definitely say this looks like a high end 19th century maker, but I suspect this is an ideal candidate for the online appraisals mentioned in the sticky at the top of this forum.

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=USA&Screen=arms

 

[Jim Watson]

Maybe E. Bernard?

I found one very similar in Lefaucheux action, trigger guard, engraving style, and the way markings wrap around the hammers at:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies b/a bernard ernest gb.htm

The one at littlegun does not appear to have the multiple ignition system of the gun illustrated here, but is otherwise very similar in appearance. He says they were trade guns that the dealer could have his own name put on.

 

[fatelk]

I know this is an old thread, but I just got a couple more photos of this old gun and thought I would post them.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Thats an awesome piece! Take it down to Las Vegas and visit the Pawn Stars! I bet you would make it into one of their episodes and you will find out what it is and how much its worth.

 

[Oyeboten]

Really beautiful Shotgun...


More pics please?

 

[vaupet]

delete

@jim watson: boy, you sure know a lot about old firearms

 

[44-henry]

I'd never make a recommendation to shoot it to someone else, but if it were mine I probably, would assuming it was tight.

 

[JIM BOB]

A friend of mine has a pinfire that looks a lot like yours except his has a carved piece to the rear of the trigger guard.On the top of the barrel in gold it has "Made in Landau"......we've searched and searched and can't learn a thing about it.

 

[oneounceload]

I'd never make a recommendation to shoot it to someone else, but if it were mine I probably, would assuming it was tight.

And what exactly would you shoot through it? It is NOT chambered for modern ammo or even the low pressure stuff. If it has been fired with BP, there could be some serious corrosion that could cause it to go KBN in your face.....

This needs to be thoroughly checked by someone who KNOWS these guns - not your shade tree bubba gun smith................

 

[Jim K]

I don't think anyone "knows these guns" as that one is pretty unusual. As Jim says, it is a triple threat on ammo - pin fire, auxiliary chambers using caps, and center fire. I have never seen nor heard of the like, though I have seen that kind of chamber made up to use with pinfire guns when ammo was not available.

I would not fire it because of its value and because it has Damascus barrels. I would WAG its date of manufacture as around 1870. Much earlier, it would not have center fire capability (1861); much later it would not have had the pinfire setup. In any case, it is an ingenious and unique (AFAIK) gun and likely was custom made, probably for a sportsman who wanted to be able to obtain ammunition anywhere he went.

I have no doubt the gun was made in Europe. Photos of the proof marks should at least give us the country of origin and perhaps a rough idea of the date. People living today could have had a great uncle who bought the gun new. (My own grandfather and great uncle were adults in 1870; my father was born in 1880.)

Jim

 

[vaupet]

ere's another link, scroll to the bottom of the page for some pics on an identical gun.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies b/a bernard gb.htm

 

[Jim K]

The guns on that site appear to be normal pinfire shotguns, without the unique "triple ammo" capability of the one shown by fatelk. The name on the OP shotgun does appear to be Bernard, though it is not clear.

Certainly, Bernard would have been capable of making that gun, so perhaps it can be attributed to him.

Jim

 

[fatelk]

Thank you everyone for all the info. This is indeed an interesting gun, and I didn't know it was so unique. My friend keeps wondering what it might be worth, but he also says that he could never sell it because it's been in the family for over a hundred years. The story is that a wealthy uncle who owned a lot of land in Idaho travelled to Europe sometime in the late 19th century and had it custom made. From reading the info on E Bernard, that does indeed seem feasible.

I have a feeling that the only way to really know the value of something like this would be to sell it (not going to happen), but does anyone have a rough guess-estimate of a ballpark value? I figure that if it were in better condition it would probably be worth quite a bit.

 

[lefaucheux]

Side by Side pinfire rifle.Belgium made between 1853 and 1893 ( see proofmarks under the barrels)

LF
www.lefaucheux.net

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Lefaucheux,

The OP's gun is certainly not a common pinfire. It not only has those auxiliary chambers but also has center-fire firing pins for use with regular (British/American) shot shells.

Just FWIW, in the interval since I first posted in this thread, I shown the pictures to two persons who are very knowledgeable in the area of European double guns and neither has ever seen anything like it. I am still inclined to believe it is a one off, custom made for someone who wanted to make as sure as possible that he would always be able to get ammunition.

Jim

 

[vaupet]

for anyone interested, a liste of historical belgian (liege) proofmarks.

greetings,

Peter

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

 

[JohnD13]

A lot of European guns in 16 gague were chambered for 2 1/2 inch shells, as opposed to the 2 3/4 inch shells here. Very fine looking shotgun!