Any historic cannon experts in here?

[ClemBert]

These two cannons (known as Tom & Jerry) have been on the campus of Clemson University (a former military school) since the 1950's. There's not much known about their history other than they were made in the mid-1800's and they are 6 pounders. I was curious to know if anyone knows the make/model of the cannons.

 

[arcticap]

I found info. that the cannons had been mounted on makeshift concrete bases at Clemson for years.
Sometime after 2014 , the cannons were moved and new carriages were built for them.
So we're not looking at their original carriages.--->>> http://newsstand.clemson.edu/bowman-field-cannons-are-about-to-undergo-a-facelift/

Each barrel weighs over 800 lbs.--->>> https://clemsonwiki.com/wiki/Tom_and_Jerry

In 2015, it was reported that Clemson received 3 other cannons that were recovered from the Great Pee Dee River in South Carolina which had markings indicating their provenance.
One of those was captured from the Union. --->>> https://www.clemson.edu/centers-institutes/conservation/projects/project_peedee_cannons.html

So it would seem that Tom & Jerry could possibly have originated from almost anywhere since according to the 1st article, other than being produced in the mid 1800's, "their exact history is obscure".

 

[Jimster]

Looks like a James 6 pounder Civil War piece.

 

[Jim Watson]

Look like US Model 1841 six pounder field pieces. Standard in Mexican War, common in Civil War.
James Gun if rifled.

 

[arcticap]

Clembert, I wonder if it could be one of these Model 1841 6 pounders?

" The Model 1841 6-pounder field gun proved the standard artillery piece for both sides of the American Civil War in its first year."

Its spec's can be seen here:--->>> https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=660

 

[ClemBert]

I found info. that the cannons had been mounted on makeshift concrete bases at Clemson for years.
Sometime after 2014 , the cannons were moved and new carriages were built for them.
So we're not looking at their original carriages.--->>> http://newsstand.clemson.edu/bowman-field-cannons-are-about-to-undergo-a-facelift/

When I went to school there in the 80's they had been mounted for years on those concrete pedestals fixed in their positions overlooking Bowman Field which was the old drill field and football/baseball field.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Beat me to it.

 

[ClemBert]

Tom & Jerry do look a lot like or maybe exactly like the smooth bore Model 1841 6-pounder cannon as seen in these photos.

 

[WestKentucky]

They are too pretty. They need dirtied up.

 

[arcticap]

Here's an original 1841 that was made in Chicopee, MA that has a replacement carriage but the original wheels.
The close up photos show how some of the barrels were marked by the manufacturer.
It was sold by Bannerman's in 1959.--->>> https://www.morphyauctions.com/jame...41-cannon-descended-in-the-ames-family-76366/

From 2010-2012, a foundry in Clarksville, Tennessee made a replica 1841 from ductile iron while some of the originals were made out of grey cast iron.
The foundry obtained the original drawings to make the replica.--->>> http://clarksvillefoundry.com/model-1841-6-pounder-field-gun-replica-clarksville-tenn/

 

[ClemBert]

Here's an original 1841 that was made in Chicopee, MA that has a replacement carriage but the original wheels.
The close up photos show how some of the barrels were marked by the manufacturer.
It was sold by Bannerman's in 1959.--->>> https://www.morphyauctions.com/jame...41-cannon-descended-in-the-ames-family-76366/

Thanks for that link to the auction. I found it interesting that the general in charge of the Citadel had asked to borrow for the 1961 centennial reenactment of the “Star Of The West” incident. I can tell you that Tom & Jerry had been mounted on concrete pedestals on the Clemson campus for a few years by the time the centennial occurred. I would assume that if they had been mounted on carriages that the Citadel would have asked to borrow them since Clemson was itself still strongly footed in military education albeit the Corp of Cadets was abolished in 1955 but still had mandatory ROTC for all students. The current carriages are replicas that were acquired in 2014. If Tom & Jerry could talk it'd be interesting to hear the story of where they had been since being cast.

BTW, an interesting tidbit: during World War II, Clemson supplied more Army officers than any other institution except for Texas A&M.

 

[ClemBert]

I noted that Steen Cannons also casts cannons in both bronze and iron. And, they make historically accurate carriages for any number of cannons. Looks like some very nice work. Someone in THR needs a full size cannons I'm sure.

And, some nice instructional videos on firing muzzle loading artillery.

 

[arcticap]

According to the articles that I posted in this thread, an estimated 50% of all publicly displayed cannons on the US were purchased from Bannerman's.
That doesn't include the privately owned surplus cannons they sold. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bannermans-island-army-navy-surplus-empire.841069/

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Even ebay sells them:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-POWD...846551?hash=item41ed0bc817:g:XBoAAOSweqxblIBC

 

[arcticap]

Slow motion cannon ball impacts - 4 minute video.
The ball shoots right through an engine block and exits the trunk which can clearly be seen on camera.
Then you can see the hole through the car.

 

[entropy]

M1841 6 pounder, or Confederate copy thereof. I hung out with the CW re-enactment group of the unit my Great-great-grandfather was in (MN 2nd Volunteer Light Artillery), and they had one of them, and a Parrot gun, representing the initial guns they were issued, and the upgrades they received later on. The only reason I didn't join was the time and travel commitment involved. They knew my name when I contacted them, as I am named after him, as was my Grandfather. I did learn the drill and manual of arms "by the numbers" for each of the positions. He mustered out as a Sgt., in charge of one of the Parrot Guns.

 

[kBob]

On the 1972 Clemson v Citadel foot ball game day I lead a group of other Citadel Freshmen from Romeo Company (knobs, Screws and Maggots, all) on a mission onto Clemson's main campus where we dressed the old guy in the chair statue in a Citadel Sweat shirt.

Had I known about the cannons I would likely have gotten in trouble by being late to kick off because of examining them. I got demerits several times at the Citadel for being "at ease" out of class rooms while examining the various bits of metal about The Citadel. I once had to polished the brass bulldog statue because I was caught going over the RF-101 Voodo ( one of only two still remaining and traded back to the USAF for their museum for a VN Era F4 done up in an alumni's colors) then immediately across the street from Da'Dawg when I should have been marching at attention from the tool shed (ROTC building) to the 4th Battalion Barracks. Got in more trouble when found kneeling at the 37mm AT gun when I should have been studying. Gosh knows what would have happened if I had been caught after lights out crawling over the Sherman Tank! When I correctly answered what the periscope in the momument next to main gate looked at (the flag staff over Regimental HQ) I ended up doing push ups until I got physically sick and barfed on the upperclassman's floor.

If I remember Correctly the Star of the West was fired one with a set of 32 pounder coastal guns like the one that was on pedistals in front of the main school subjects building so not much of a reenactment if a 6 pounder was to be used! Back then The Citadel maintained two 3 inch AT rifles as salute guns that used BP blanks ( brass shotgun shell in shell)

There is what appears to be a six pounder on a carriage in front of one of the frats at University of Florida on campus. There used to be one in the UF ROTC department that was used to fire salutes at Football games both for the flag and Gator Touchdowns.

Two 6 pounders like those at Clemson used to sit on the steps of the Florida State capitol but no one seems to know what happened to them and even photos of them seem rare these days.

Oh and they look like 1841 guns to me as well.

Guns in the US in the 1800s were generally marked at manufacture on the muzzle ring fairly deeply and then given unit markings and some times additional foundry markings on the face of the trunions. Many of the plated guns had these stamped in features filled.

Locally here near Gainesville we have one original 3 inch rifle (used in the relocation of the bodies of one of the Hunley crews in Charleston when the Stadium was being worked on) and a number of repros of various guns.

-kBob

 

[ClemBert]

How the heck did you get the sweatshirt on him (Thomas Clemson)? Nice prank!

Thomas Green Clemson was the son-in-law of John C. Calhoun (US Secretary of War then VP under John Quincy Adam and Andrew Jackson). Clemson inherited the Calhoun plantation and in his will donated it to SC to form a college. Clemson, although a northerner born in Philly, served the CSA's Army of the Trans-Mississippi Department.

 

[Kaeto]

All pictures taken at Shiloh Battleground in Shiloh Tenn. I had an ancestor who was at the battle of Shiloh. He survived by jumping in the river and swimming away from the battle.

 

[kBob]

Kaeto,

Thanks for those wonderful pictures from Shiloh.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

ClemBert,

The method for getting a sweat shirt on that statue was a simple formula of one part youthful hormones and two parts Brute Force and Ignorance mixed with a size XXX-large sweat shirt.

What amazed me having grown up near Tallahassee Florida where Seminole fans were known to rip bumpers off cars bearing say Gator bumper stickers on game day was that we were not beaten to death for even trying.

We did this in broad daylight right before the game. The only folks to actually say any thing were....wait for it.... the Clemson Cheerleaders who actually sort of cheered us on and took pictures of us posing with the sweat shirted statue. I think most of the guys in the battalion were more impressed with the fact we had contact with females...and cheerleaders at that ... than that we had "claimed" the statue.

I just looked for a picture I know I have that one of the cheerleaders took using my camera and have yet to find it, but when I do I will scan it for you.

The week after this event I was being hazed partially as a result of "Embarassing the Company in public" when I had a Black Powder Experience. A Sophmore stuck a reproduction 1851 Colt in my left ear while I was "Pressing Steel"(Leaning with my fore head against his wall locker while otherwise at the position of attention) and ordered to tell what I knew about the ear probe. This last was an error on the Upperclassman's part as it both took my mind off the pain and embarrassment and allowed me to go into gun babble mode.

Hey I got it back to Black Powder!

-kBob

 

[4v50 Gary]

Kaeto - please do tell more about your ancestor. Name and unit?

Great cannon video Articap.

 

[kBob]

One of the cannons is marked on the trunions as being made by C Algers of Boston in 1861 and the other is my Ames in 1842 of Springfield Mass.

Neither seems to have been marked on the muzzles.

They are maintained by the Pershing Rifles Company of the schools ROTC department.

I got the info from an article in the Newsletter of theMilitary History Center of the Carolinas "Netcall"

-kBob

 

[Kaeto]

Kaeto - please do tell more about your ancestor. Name and unit?

Great cannon video Articap.

Last name was Bell. Not sure of unit but he was Union. I've got 2 ancestors who were in the 139th Penn Volunteer Infantry Co. C. A father and son. Another who was in the 1st Tenn, and another who was in the Mississippi Marine Brigade, Light Artillery..

 

[daboyleroy]

Last name was Bell. Not sure of unit but he was Union. I've got 2 ancestors who were in the 139th Penn Volunteer Infantry Co. C. A father and son. Another who was in the 1st Tenn, and another who was in the Mississippi Marine Brigade, Light Artillery..

Take a look at
http://www.139thpennsylvaniavolunteers.com/calling-descendants-139th/

Please see this message from Arthur Fox:

Name: arthur B. Fox

Email: [email protected]

Comment: I am now moving forward with my manuscript for a history of the 139th Pa Infantry Regiment. A positive response and go-ahead from McFarland Publishing of North Carolina now makes this future book a reality. Planning to complete the manuscript by late-summer 2018. If you wish to have any of your 139th ancestors that you may have photographs of featured in the book, contact me at: [email protected], or send hard copies to: Arthur B. Fox, 2627 Broadway Ave. Pittsburgh, PA. 15216. This will be my fourth book on the Civil War as is relates to the western PA region. My first three books were published by Mechling Publishing, of Butler County, Pa.
Thank you, Arthur B. Fox

Can’t wait to see your book Arthur!

Dianne