Anybody playing with the 7.62x25?

[kestak]

Greetings,

There are stories of CZ-52 barrels breaking up. It is not with the romanian and the czech ammo (currently sold at aimsurplus). It is with the pink wrapped Bulgarian ammo that was made for sub-machine guns AND has a very variable amount of powder making some rounds too hot. That ammo was still selling at J&G sales and you can still read in many CZ and milsurp boards warning the people to buy it.

It is true the chamber is not the strongest chamber in the market. Clark is right. How is it making the gun unsafe? I do not know. But I can say if there would have a serious security issue and many accidents, we would have heard a lot more. There are many msgs in some boards that say the TT-33 currently sold is unsafe and made of very bad and soft steal and people must not shot that handgun with the current milsurp ammo. I am still waiting to read some people blew up their guns with that ammo.

Bottom line, Clark measurements may be right (I am sorry, but I can't say they are right because I was not there and I do not know if his methodology was done right) I give him the benefit of the doubt. But how does it really affect the safety? Where are the guns that blew up and what ammo were they using? Did they clean their gun correctly? Was the barrel obstructed? Was the brass damaged?

Thank you

Thank you

 

[Halo]

To what extent were the CZ-52s used in the Czech military, or for that matter in other ComBloc nations? Did they experience frequent catastrophic failures?

 

[snuffy]

I, for one, have no problem with Clark's information. After reading this and another thread on the cz-52, I took a long look at mine. He is right on about the way the chamber is cut across the bottom to make room for the roller locking mechanism. IF the barrel is hard enough, then it will probably withstand the hot surplus ammo. BUT knowing about the war time manufacturing practices, sometimes shortcuts were taken to maximize production.

One of the shortcuts was to not heat treat for as long as it would take to result in a hard barrel. Or the process was skipped entirely.

I load for mine, and I bought some S&B and some wolf gold to shoot for the brass. The S&B was a lot hotter @ 1585 for a 85 fmj. The wolf gold was @ 1339 for their 85 JHP. I also got some starline brass to try some loads with the 90 XTP. 9.0 blu-dot fills the case to the bullet base and gives 1127 fps. I also tried some WC-820, which is 30 carbine powder. It works, BUT the muzzle flash is real colorful, along with a deep BOOM!

As for finding the brass, well next time I'll take my landing net, stick it upright next to the bench!

 

[Clark]

jr45
Senior Member


Join Date: 05-09-07
Location: Virginia
Posts: 122

Clark,
I guess I'm a little confused. If the barrel of the CZ-52 is weaker than the brass, then I would assume that the barrels would be spliting at a very alarmig rate (i.e. everyone would know they were bad/like firing smokeless powder out of an black powder gun). I am not an engineer and yet I have fired close to 2k rounds of varous surplus ammo through my CZ-52 (and about 500+ reloads) with not ill effects. Does this mean I'm just lucky? If you could explain why there are not so many accounts of the barrels spliting?

Note: I am not tring to question the testing you conducted...just basing my personal experiences in the question.

With the variation in CZ52 heat treating, it is possible that one barrel may shoot a lifetime of proof loads and never fail while another blows up too easily.

I blew up one CZ52 with a 1%, overload, another CZ52 with a 17% overload, and can't hurt a Tokarev with anything.

The Tokarevs with chamber walls 1/8" thick could be made of Aluminum and would still be stronger than a CZ52.

I think the important thing is that we corrected an error in the gun culture.
Erroneous reports of CZ52 strength was first published in 1970.
I started ranting on the internet about the error in 2000.
A number of publications admitted to me they just printed what they read.
By 2004, Accurate Arms recanted the hot CZ52 only loads, and reduced them to broom handle pressures.

What does it all mean?
Now that we have the internet, books full of BS are going to get called out.
a) I helped dispel the CZ52 strength [It is really weak] and the Tokarev's weakness [It is really strong].
b) Others on the internet de bunked the book "Disarming America" [The San Francisco fire burned up the probate records used]
c) Others on the internet de bunked GWB's bad military records [the type writer used had not been made yet]
d) Matt Drudge posted Monica Lewinsky's story, when no one else would.
e) Everyone and his brother, on the internet, have criticized Ayoob's books and articles for factual errors.
f) High school text books may treat global warming as fact, but it is not settled on the internet.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
Victory is ours.

 

[dogrunner]

I must be one of those "lucky" one's too, Clark. I will not repeat some of the experimental loads I've shoved thru my '52, but I am utterly positive that a few would've shucked several name brand pistols like an ear of corn!.....Not only did the gun hold (I really had my doubts and was remotely discharging it inside a heavy shield) it showed absolutely no indication of problems other than what you'd expect from an extremely heavy load. Certainly less metalurgical testing it's impossible to comment on the steel quality of the guns. Mine appears to be of high quality and wear patterns on contact points are what I'd expect to see on any S&W. Mine, by the way is of 1954 mfg and appeared unissued when I bought it...........and FULL of a thick preservative!

Anyway, nuff of the opinion without scientific analysis, I found one load that shoots and functions extremely well in my gun. 7.5 to 8.5 of Blue Dot pushing the mentioned XTP HP. Another is Lee's 100 gr .311 hard cast RN, lubed w/ Javelina brand Alox. Standard small pistol primers in each case. Both work well for me but your's may be different. I can ring steel all day at 100 with either load. Sure gotta agree that a fine mesh dip net for a brass catcher is a good idea tho. By the way, that HP will utterly 'smoke' small game to about the size of a large 'coon and I would not hesitate to use it in a self defense application.

 

[Funderb]

I think what clark is trying to say is that people assumed the "Very strong roller locking system" somehow turned into "very strong pistol/chamber" and got people excited about reloading hotly.

But as of yet I haven't heard people call a CZ52 strong except when referring to the roller locking mechanism, which is, from and engineering standpoint, very strong.

 

[Tyris]

I've got an email from a parts manufacturer that is ramping up for production of cz52 barrels in November. I wont post their name as I did not mention that I'd pass the info on.

My email query to them was about stainless match grade cz52 barrels. They said perhaps november

I am geeked. I love the cz52, though I've been disheartened to read this thread and see the RC hardness so low. Mine has given me abosolutely trouble free use for years. I've polished the trigger mechanism and electively upgraded the firing pin, grips and recoil spring (to 18 pounds). The only thing left to do is get a match grade stainless barrel for it. Well, that and an extended threaded barrel and a custom 30 cal handgun silencer

Im hoping that a new production barrel on modern CNC machines and using good 416 steel will add some safety margin into this little firecracker of a handgun.

-T

 

[Rmac58]

Does this mean my favorite pistol is going to drop already below it's cheap price?

 

[Roccobro]

Only if you plan to mod it out like many do to their 10/22's!

Justin

 

[jjohnson]

Please Listen to Clark!

For those of you who think Clark's trying to scare you, stop for a second and think about it if you've ever seen a catastrophic failure on the range. If you don't get it, think again (do loop - cycle until this makes sense).

Yep, the Tok round is pretty hot as loaded by some of our ex enemies. It can be a pain to reload, too, and the CZ52 is arguably one of the ugliest things to come down the pike since oh, I dunno, Astra 400....

I don't push my CZ52. I know it's a blast (haha ) to shoot, but just remember that lots of surplus was likely produced for PPSh 41's and the like - I wouldn't want to be the one out there trying to load to +P+ levels in this round in the CZ52. Most Com Bloc stuff is really pretty sturdy, but this pistol seems to be the exception to the rule. Play and have fun, boys, but play safe......

 

[wally]

Sportsman's Guide seems to still be selling the bad Bulgarian ammo in question as recently as a few months ago!

Its in 800 round galvanized tins with a leather strap handle for about $77. Has the 3-10-52 head stamp and the 16-round package labels mostly match the scan, although they are so faded its hard to call them pink and most had broken open by the time I finished chiseling the can open.

I just opened the can I got to try about 6 months ago yesterday, and found it very erratic at the range today. Flagged it as don't buy any more. The 1224 round green sardine can Romanian 7.62x25 they also sell I've found excellent with no duds yet and very consistent.

It didn't blow up my CZ52 although a couple of rounds of the 72 I shot had impressive fireballs visible in bright sunlight. Three were duds, and a couple were so light they barely cycled the gun.

I'll shoot the rest of it in my Tok.

--wally.

 

[AgentAdam]

"The round is basically a shorter version of a .30 caliber rifle round.

It's very impressive and I'm surprised the American gun and ammo unions haven't come out with their version of bottle necked beast over the years."

They already did. It's called the .32NAA from North American Arms who teamed up with Corbon to make the .32naa and the .25naa. The .32naa is a .380ACP bottle necked down to accept a .32 cal bullet at blistering speeds even from a 2" barrel. The .25naa is a .32ACP necked down to take a .25acp caliber bullet.

They never really became popular but Corbon produces ammo for them. The only pistols chambered for them are the NAA/Seecamp/Guardian mouse guns. There was a SMALL(2-5ish) batch of .32naa conversion barrels made for the Kel-Tec P3AT .380 pistol.


LEFT .32NAA RIGHT .380ACP

Perhaps you could neck down you own .380 cases with a .32 NAA sizing die? Get a custom .32nna barrel installed in any .380auto and it will use the same magazines and all.

Oh yea ,and they make conversion barrels for the Makarov(originally a .380) .
http://www.makarov.com/cart/32naa.htm

Starline makes new annealed brass.

 

[reclino]

Any word on the Stainless barrels that are to hit the market in November??? I for one would love to have one for my CZ52
David

 

[dpote]

I would really like to get some information on this new CZ-52 barrel as well.

Dave

 

[Funderb]

yeah, me too.

 

[Claude Clay]

mine came with:
a case of SM ammo that crony's at a taste below 1500 fps. still have about 500 left.
dies and about 600 starline new cases. i have loaded 85 gr to 1300 fps with bullseye for surprisingly good accuracy
a 9mm bbl that i have loaded 124 gr to 1250 fps.

i believe the gun could handle more but its old and why push it hard? as an aside--my de-cocker often can be counted on as a back-up trigger.

 

[rrob311]

CZ52 Problems

I bought a CZ52 a couple years ago and the first time I took it to the range it shot through a mag and the next mag the slide would not return all the way after the first shot by about 1-3mm or so. I did not notice and when I pressed the trigger, it just went click. Then the slide could not be pulled back LOCKED SOLID with one in the chamber with a dented primer! So I was trying to clear the jam and it unexpectedly fired when I operated the Decocker. Scared the crap out of my buddy. I am not sure if it does this when it heats up or if the gun is just too tight. It only does it intermittently but I can't depend on it to even practice at the range. the slide just wont return by a millimeter or two, enough to where the firing pin still contacts it but not enough to fire, a good whack with a mallet would probably unjam it but it's pretty dangerous. Anyone else run into this?