Anyone else ever pneumatically driven a press?
- Thread starter Noxx
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Instead of all this gizmotronics, why not develop a linkage that cycles the press with foot actuator instead of a handle stroke. You still maintain the feel needed, but your arm doesn't get tired and keeps your hands free to increase production efficiency....or get crushed, YMMV.
Tomcat47
Member
It sounds doable! I have built robotics with air cylinders. Look at Bimba components. They should have everything you need. Do some homework on the right cylinder. maybe do som pressure test to see how much you need.
I have done reliatively the same idea in production type settings in manufacturing.
Got my wheels turnin! Also go to this web site for some neat catalogs of components. www.sdp-si.com (stock drive components) request desk reference library all types of components to drive the family crazy. and Bimba is www.bimba.com
I have done reliatively the same idea in production type settings in manufacturing.
Got my wheels turnin! Also go to this web site for some neat catalogs of components. www.sdp-si.com (stock drive components) request desk reference library all types of components to drive the family crazy. and Bimba is www.bimba.com
Peter, I cannot recommend it enough.
I used to have one of the little alloy Lee hand presses. It was springy, off-axis, and had no real leverage, all things considered.
One day, I walked into a local gun shop in Melbourne, FL, and there was a dusty little Huntington's box sitting there. It had no price tag, but inside was that brand-new Huntington Compac, with manual and base plate, still sealed in the bag.
The store owner had several other used single-stage presses, so I asked him what he wanted for the Compac. He didn't know, so I told him I'd pay the same price he had on an RCBS Jr. sitting nearby. It was all of $27.00, out the door. I giggled like a little schoolgirl on the drive all the way home.
The Compac doesn't have the leverage to do serious case forming, but for just resizing and reloading, it works great. The shellholder runs on two steel guide rods, and the rest of the press is a heavier grade of aluminum alloy, so it runs true and is nowhere near as springy as the handheld Lee version. It primes on the downstroke, which is kind of awkward, but I've even used a Lyman priming attachment to great effect.
I loaded all that 7.62x45 Czech ammo seen in the picture above with the Huntington Compac die, just to see if a minimalist reloader would have any problems doing so. Piece of cake.
I take it along on my long-range BPCR silhouette shoots, with a decapping die installed. Once my big Sharps launches the bullets downrange, I decap the black-powder .45-70 cases and dump them into a gallon milk jug of soapy water.
I've since given my Lee hand press to a buddy of mine. However, he likes the Huntington, so I have a feeling he'll get his own soon, and pawn the Lee off on somebody else.
I used to have one of the little alloy Lee hand presses. It was springy, off-axis, and had no real leverage, all things considered.
One day, I walked into a local gun shop in Melbourne, FL, and there was a dusty little Huntington's box sitting there. It had no price tag, but inside was that brand-new Huntington Compac, with manual and base plate, still sealed in the bag.
The store owner had several other used single-stage presses, so I asked him what he wanted for the Compac. He didn't know, so I told him I'd pay the same price he had on an RCBS Jr. sitting nearby. It was all of $27.00, out the door. I giggled like a little schoolgirl on the drive all the way home.
The Compac doesn't have the leverage to do serious case forming, but for just resizing and reloading, it works great. The shellholder runs on two steel guide rods, and the rest of the press is a heavier grade of aluminum alloy, so it runs true and is nowhere near as springy as the handheld Lee version. It primes on the downstroke, which is kind of awkward, but I've even used a Lyman priming attachment to great effect.
I loaded all that 7.62x45 Czech ammo seen in the picture above with the Huntington Compac die, just to see if a minimalist reloader would have any problems doing so. Piece of cake.
I take it along on my long-range BPCR silhouette shoots, with a decapping die installed. Once my big Sharps launches the bullets downrange, I decap the black-powder .45-70 cases and dump them into a gallon milk jug of soapy water.
I've since given my Lee hand press to a buddy of mine. However, he likes the Huntington, so I have a feeling he'll get his own soon, and pawn the Lee off on somebody else.
yhtomit
Member
taliv wrote:
Does anyone have pictures of that? Sounds like a cool setup.
The more people who actively reload, the harder it will be for sweeping ammo restrictions to be instituted, and that sounds like prime example #1 to trot out!
timothy
Does anyone have pictures of that?
Sounds like a cool setup. The more people who actively reload, the harder it will be for sweeping ammo restrictions to be instituted, and that sounds like prime example #1 to trot out!
timothy
I have a Ponsness/Warren 800B shotshell reloader with the hydraulic power unit. It is great.. when it works.
When it doesn't it makes a real mess of things. Although I've never had a primer detonate. Its pretty slow, in comparison to my arm.
I can turn out nearly 1/3rd more with Col. Armstrong at my side over what the hydraulic unit can do, and I've never caused damage to my press and rarely to components. It is awful handy when I'm busy doing some metallic reloading and I stick the Mrs. on that machine...
When it doesn't it makes a real mess of things. Although I've never had a primer detonate. Its pretty slow, in comparison to my arm.
I can turn out nearly 1/3rd more with Col. Armstrong at my side over what the hydraulic unit can do, and I've never caused damage to my press and rarely to components. It is awful handy when I'm busy doing some metallic reloading and I stick the Mrs. on that machine...
BigJakeJ1s
Member
I also added a small ~4" diameter wood base to the bottom of my Huntington Compac, using the existing nuts on the bottom of the guide rods. The base is not big enough to seriously affect portability, but is does allow the press to stand up on its own, which is handy if you need both hands for something else.
As I reported in another thread, I replaced the pivot bolts with headed clevis pins and e-clips to avoid having the aluminum pieces pivoting on bolt threads.
This little press is the best kept secret in the handheld press world!
I still deprime using a lee hand press, since its hollow ram gobbles up the spent primers and debris. That's about all my Lee is good for though: too springy, not enough leverage and poorly aligned.
Andy
As I reported in another thread, I replaced the pivot bolts with headed clevis pins and e-clips to avoid having the aluminum pieces pivoting on bolt threads.
This little press is the best kept secret in the handheld press world!
I still deprime using a lee hand press, since its hollow ram gobbles up the spent primers and debris. That's about all my Lee is good for though: too springy, not enough leverage and poorly aligned.
Andy
snuffy
Member
A 2 inch,(piston size), air cylinder will put out 376.992 pounds of force with 120 pounds of air pressure. Use 180 pounds AP, you get 565.488 pounds of force. Now use a 4 inch air cylinder with the 120 pound air pressure you get 1507.96 pounds of force. Increase the AP to 180 you get 2261.9. Now you have what should do the work, BUT the travel time for that big cyl. is gonna take forever!
The formula is simple, area of the piston times pressure. To figure area, it's diameter X diameter X .7854.
Now somebody with a strain guage measure how much pressure is exerted by the ram of ANY single stage with a compound linkage lever system, when at it's upper most part of the travel. I'll make a WAG, it's probably close to a ton!
Now take a 1.5 inch Hydraulic ram, put 1800 pounds of oil pressure on it, you get 3180 pounds of force! If it has a 12 inch stroke, it would extend fully in 5.5 seconds.
Can it be done? Of course, but again why? Tedious? Not for me. I think of how much fun I'll have shooting those loads, it quickly becomes worth a little work.
Yes, I do have a 650 progressive. But I still use my co-ax a lot for small jobs and for calibers I don't have a conversion for----yet. I even got a cheap lee challanger for bullet sizeing and loading 45-70 and 22 hornet,(both require changing shell holder jaws in the co-ax).
The formula is simple, area of the piston times pressure. To figure area, it's diameter X diameter X .7854.
Now somebody with a strain guage measure how much pressure is exerted by the ram of ANY single stage with a compound linkage lever system, when at it's upper most part of the travel. I'll make a WAG, it's probably close to a ton!
Now take a 1.5 inch Hydraulic ram, put 1800 pounds of oil pressure on it, you get 3180 pounds of force! If it has a 12 inch stroke, it would extend fully in 5.5 seconds.
Can it be done? Of course, but again why? Tedious? Not for me. I think of how much fun I'll have shooting those loads, it quickly becomes worth a little work.
Yes, I do have a 650 progressive. But I still use my co-ax a lot for small jobs and for calibers I don't have a conversion for----yet. I even got a cheap lee challanger for bullet sizeing and loading 45-70 and 22 hornet,(both require changing shell holder jaws in the co-ax).
Oh of course it can be done, I'm equipped to do it, I wasn't looking for blueprints just some feedback if anyone else had tried it.
Why? The best two reasons. 1) Cuz I can, 2) makin' gadgets is a hoot.
FWIW I'm only reloading 9mm and .45acp, I'm betting I'll never have to exceced 220lbs to size and seat either. For rifle it's a whole nother story.
Usually, the first clue that I have screwed up something comes from feel. I am just learning how to reload (< 1500 rounds), so maybe that makes a difference. But I have done some stupid things, and I seem to feel the mistake before I can react visually. Right now, pneumatic pressure on the handle would be a very big mistake for me.
Mike
Mike
Knucklehead2
Member
Noxx,
I forgot about Air over Oil. Hydraulics requires a pump and air may be to fast, but an air system with oil may be the way to go.
Plenty of power and the correct cylinders will have dampers at the stroke ends. Just a thought since you sound serious about tackling this project.
I forgot about Air over Oil. Hydraulics requires a pump and air may be to fast, but an air system with oil may be the way to go.
Plenty of power and the correct cylinders will have dampers at the stroke ends. Just a thought since you sound serious about tackling this project.
snuffy
Member
Now that I do understand! Especially if you have access to a machine shop, or the tools to do the job. Sounds like it would be fun! Good luck if you do decide to try it. PM me if I can help with calculations.
presspuller
Member
I think instead of using a cyl. mounted directly to the ram I would mount a long stroke one to the handle. Let it work just as it would with you doing the motion.
That will solve the leverage problem.
That will solve the leverage problem.
Depends on which route I go. Last night I got to pondering just using an electric gearmotor, flywheel and linkage, which would be dirt simple if I can grab a used motor with a clutch on the cheap. As some other folks have already pointed out, hydraulic / electro-hydraulic drivers are really the proper engineering solution, but cost really puts them on the sideboard unless I run into a little hydraulic bearing press at the junkyard to cannibalize.
If I go with air and have to order stuff, a couple of weeks and I should have something up, depending on OT at work, which is pretty wild atm. Will keep you folks posted.
jmorris
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You are getting closer to my first idea. Check the throw on your handle; trace it onto a piece of cardboard. The (2) machines I’ve looked at wouldn’t work with a simple reciprocating linkage. If your machine will work a poor mans clutch can be made out of split set collars on a smooth shaft. You might also think about having a spring “overload” built into your connecting road (so the spring will compress when more force is applied than you’ve used by hand).
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
The problem with attaching the cylinder to the handle is that the only part of the handle that moces in a straingt line is the pivot at the ram. Everything else travels on an arc.
It's not at all insurmountable, but adds some complexity.
It's not at all insurmountable, but adds some complexity.
jmorris
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It’s the amount of arc that’s the problem with the machines, I’ve looked at. You would loose all mechanical advantage and/or the linkage would bind. Think of how an old steam engine train was powered, if the “ram” was all the way in or out when it stopped, it couldn’t start again. I don’t know for sure but my guess is the other drive wheel of the train was clocked 180 degrees different. Now, if you just used a small punch press and made a die & case holders, you could smash stuff in the blink of an eye.
presspuller
Member
There is no problem at all with the handle swinging in an arc. All you do is simply mount the cyl. with a pivot on the back so it can swing with the handle.
Also all you do is mount the cyl. so that is is at an angle to the handle so that at the start of the stroke it can move the handle instead of trying to push in the direction of the lenth of the handle.
I want to see pictures when you get it done.
Also all you do is mount the cyl. so that is is at an angle to the handle so that at the start of the stroke it can move the handle instead of trying to push in the direction of the lenth of the handle.
I want to see pictures when you get it done.
snuffy
Member
Very true. BUT now you'll need a long stroke cylinder, that interprets to time of stroke, usually expressed in seconds. Double that 1.5 inch ram's length that I mentioned in my earlier post to a 24 inch stroke, you also double it's 5.5 second travel time to 11 seconds!
Now you certainly can mount the cyl. so it can pivot at it's back end, what is it going to mounted to? You're going to have to build a structure above the press that the press is attached solidly to, which will handle the force that the cyl is putting out.
Now with all that built around, above, and in front of the press, I want to see someone have room left to get to the press and load shells!
Accessibility to the area under where the die is mounted, is a big selling point for press manufacters. Imagine all that machinery being in the way while trying to load ammo.The only solution is to mount the cyl under the press for a direct push on the ram. You would HAVE TO make sure it is pushing absoulutely straight on the ram. Any off center pushing will either bind the ram or bend it.
Jim Watson
Member
I was just loading some ammunition on my Rockchucker and thought that a pneumatic or hydraulic cylinder could be mounted horizontally under the bench, driving the press through a shortened handle. Maybe even mounted below the toggle, with the ex-handle rod cranked back to miss your knee.
Otto
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My 2¢
I think the cost and complexity of this idea is being underestimated.
Converting a Rock Chucker (or whatever) into a hydraulic press is extremely ambitious. You'd probably do better just to start from scratch rather than jerry-rigging a manual reloader. If the goal here is to have fun, then I can appreciate that.
If you weren't already aware, Corbin makes a hydraulic press, the CHP-1.
Perhaps you can glean some ideas from their machine. Good luck....
http://www.corbins.com/prchp-1.htm
I think the cost and complexity of this idea is being underestimated.
Converting a Rock Chucker (or whatever) into a hydraulic press is extremely ambitious. You'd probably do better just to start from scratch rather than jerry-rigging a manual reloader. If the goal here is to have fun, then I can appreciate that.
If you weren't already aware, Corbin makes a hydraulic press, the CHP-1.
Perhaps you can glean some ideas from their machine. Good luck....
http://www.corbins.com/prchp-1.htm
presspuller
Member
The amount of time required to cycle a cylinder is controlled by the air pressure/volume and the size of the plumbing. Trust me, a 24 inch cyl. can be cycled in the same amount of time that a person can stroke the handle,,,, well it can be done a WHOLE lot faster but I don't think he wants to get carried away here.
Yes it would make more sense to move the cyl. to where it is either horizontal or otherwise down below the table surface. But it sounds like that should not be a problem for him.
Also keeping the original linkage the "stop" is already built in.
A 1.5" cyl. will put out way more force than needed if attached to the handle, a 1" would probably do it.
If he does go with a large cyl. attached directly to the ram there are rod ends that allow being offset slightly so no damage would happen.
Yes it would make more sense to move the cyl. to where it is either horizontal or otherwise down below the table surface. But it sounds like that should not be a problem for him.
Also keeping the original linkage the "stop" is already built in.
A 1.5" cyl. will put out way more force than needed if attached to the handle, a 1" would probably do it.
If he does go with a large cyl. attached directly to the ram there are rod ends that allow being offset slightly so no damage would happen.
BigJakeJ1s
Member
In reference to steam locomotives, opposite sides (ends) of each drive axle were phased 90 degrees apart, such that when one cylinder was at full or minimum extension (and therefore applying no torque), the other cylinder was in mid stroke, applying maximum torque. This was called quartering. The cylinders were also double acting.
Andy
Andy
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