Anyone else find inarticulated opinions frustrating? (aka "beware the old guy lurking at the LGS")
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entropy
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I just assumed it was a play on words; the physical meaning of articulation, flexbility, and the linguistic meaning, unable to express one's self.
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grampajack
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TheSquire
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I don't think he was in any way the first to say it, but my dad used to say to me " You are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion".
22-rimfire
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That's kind of true, but funny also. The people that most express their opinions firmly or absolutely are usually the ones who are least informed. As you learn more, your opinions become less encompassing or at least described with adjectives that reflect that it is your opinion and not an absolute. However, those opinions often carry more weight if the receptor is willing to listen to your words (not cherry picking the words that reflect their opinion).
I don't find age to be a significant issue in this. What I do find is the amount of education and training, coupled with ego. The less of the former and expressed level of the latter seems to be the problem area.
Furthermore, a gun user isn't a gun designer. What the general public does is 'conflate' user skill with "expert" status on the design and function of the firearm. It's like asking a NASCAR driver on the latest head flow theory and how it interrelates with cam lobe separation angle. He's not ignorant of certain facts involved but that isn't his area of expertise. He's given a car with an engine, goes out on the track, and then relates to the crew how he would like it run - which is filtered thru the crew chief according to the tactics for that race.
A shooter in a competition doesn't get a crew chief - he's his own armorer - often his own reloader - and usually his own worst customer. Think about it that way when you hear one spout off about "I'm the only one here professional enough to do this." You will probably hear him shoot his foot with the next statement.
Ignorance and ego.
Furthermore, a gun user isn't a gun designer. What the general public does is 'conflate' user skill with "expert" status on the design and function of the firearm. It's like asking a NASCAR driver on the latest head flow theory and how it interrelates with cam lobe separation angle. He's not ignorant of certain facts involved but that isn't his area of expertise. He's given a car with an engine, goes out on the track, and then relates to the crew how he would like it run - which is filtered thru the crew chief according to the tactics for that race.
A shooter in a competition doesn't get a crew chief - he's his own armorer - often his own reloader - and usually his own worst customer. Think about it that way when you hear one spout off about "I'm the only one here professional enough to do this." You will probably hear him shoot his foot with the next statement.
Ignorance and ego.
rskent
Member
Not at all. People are people. We all have opinions. I think it’s part of the fun.
And I don’t care if you call a clip a magazine or a silencer a suppressor. I’m not a child, I can tell what you mean.
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grampajack
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I also don't get bothered by terminology. Some of the most accomplished shooters and smiths I've talked to will use colloquialisms. In general, I find that the more anal someone is the less they know. It's not until someone starts talking about "knockdown power" that I know they've been watching too many movies.
Ironicaintit
Member
Terminology bugs the heck outta me. Like any other mechanical science, thingys have specific names to separate them from the doohickeys.
Clips are for loading magazines.
But I'm getting old, and I think that goes with it.
Now I have to get those dang kids offa my lawn!
Clips are for loading magazines.
But I'm getting old, and I think that goes with it.
Now I have to get those dang kids offa my lawn!
rskent
Member
Just show them where the lawn mower is.
From the opening post - "Does anyone else ever feel like there's a portion of the human population who form die hard, nearly religious opinions about guns, yet they cannot even begin to articulate why they hold to those opinions?"
I read that and I thought this was going to be a thread about liberals and Politicians and Hilary voters.
I read that and I thought this was going to be a thread about liberals and Politicians and Hilary voters.
22-rimfire
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Just water a lot. They'll get off.
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grampajack
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Same mentality in MANY ways.
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grampajack
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It effects all of us because the gun market is driven partly by a lot of misinformation. The manufacturers don't care if something is stupid as long as it's selling, which isn't real great for those of us who are more practical. And that doesn't just apply to actual products. We have an information industry, which includes gun mags, salesmen, instructors, this forum, blogs, etc.
The gun industry is one of the few industries where a person can be an expert in their field and not know anything more than their own speculation based on faulty logic.
The gun industry is one of the few industries where a person can be an expert in their field and not know anything more than their own speculation based on faulty logic.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Every consumer goods industry is based on misinformation, incomplete information, extremely exaggerated claims, skewed comparisons, and correct information presented in such a way as to convince our inner action hero idiot to run off into fantastical imaginations of adequacy and virility we'll be able to realize if we just purchase this very special product.
"We" may be more practical, but only ever so slightly so. How many of the guns we all own did we really need? How many of the reasons we convinced ourselves of to buy guns and gear were realistic or very logical life choices? The advertiser lie to us because we LIKE it. We buy the product because we want to believe that we're the kind of guy who needs this widgit, and it's really going to make us happy.
We are experts in our fields, and can quote all sorts of facts, statistics, and qualified opinions, but rarely understand just how insignificant the actual benefits of this or that really are. We can argue that X is better than Y and be completely right. Somebody else can look at that argument and decide it makes not one iota of practical difference ... and be completely right.
We're all in the game because we like the game.
"We" may be more practical, but only ever so slightly so. How many of the guns we all own did we really need? How many of the reasons we convinced ourselves of to buy guns and gear were realistic or very logical life choices? The advertiser lie to us because we LIKE it. We buy the product because we want to believe that we're the kind of guy who needs this widgit, and it's really going to make us happy.
We are experts in our fields, and can quote all sorts of facts, statistics, and qualified opinions, but rarely understand just how insignificant the actual benefits of this or that really are. We can argue that X is better than Y and be completely right. Somebody else can look at that argument and decide it makes not one iota of practical difference ... and be completely right.
We're all in the game because we like the game.
morcey2
Member
I just hope to live long enough to be the old guy lurking at the LGS annoying all the young know-nothing whippersnappers. "You don't know how good you got it! Back in my day if we wanted to reload, we had to make primers out of duck tape and rat droppings. And we were thankful for the opportunity!"
Matt
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huntsman
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We all should have or own filters, if someone is espousing the virtues of ammo and or firearms (for hunting) my first question is what have YOU killed with it? If the answer is nothing then it's shields up and end of topic.
Milk jugs or jel maybe fun stuff but you want to see what a shotgun slug will do kill something.
SD and handgun stuff I'm a bit more forgiving but the constant selling has me looking for snake oil salesman behind every video clip or test.
Milk jugs or jel maybe fun stuff but you want to see what a shotgun slug will do kill something.
SD and handgun stuff I'm a bit more forgiving but the constant selling has me looking for snake oil salesman behind every video clip or test.
GunnyUSMC
Member
You must remember that most Gun Experts are self imposed , or elected by the uninformed.
I have met the gun expert that only owned a few guns and had fired only a hand full of different guns.
Many know everything about guns they have never fired. Most are not humble and will never admit that they are wrong or ever have been.
Now, I'm no gun expert, but I do own over 400 guns, and have shot most of them. I do get to shoot a lot of guns in my line of work. In the last ten months I have fired over 1000 different guns. But I'm no expert by far.
When it comes to these so-called experts, look at them this way. They are like liberals. They base their opinions on misinformation and emotions. Most often they have no facts to backup what they think is right, and refuse to listen to any facts that contradict their beliefs.
Never argue with one of them, because it's like arguing with a woman. No offenses towards woman.
I have met the gun expert that only owned a few guns and had fired only a hand full of different guns.
Many know everything about guns they have never fired. Most are not humble and will never admit that they are wrong or ever have been.
Now, I'm no gun expert, but I do own over 400 guns, and have shot most of them. I do get to shoot a lot of guns in my line of work. In the last ten months I have fired over 1000 different guns. But I'm no expert by far.
When it comes to these so-called experts, look at them this way. They are like liberals. They base their opinions on misinformation and emotions. Most often they have no facts to backup what they think is right, and refuse to listen to any facts that contradict their beliefs.
Never argue with one of them, because it's like arguing with a woman. No offenses towards woman.
huntsman
Member
So you're caught up in numbers? If I want to know about a Glock and I talk to a guy who has only used G for twenty years I should discount his opinions because he hasn't used different platforms?
Arizona_Mike
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Do we really expect a minimum wage employee to know anything? I've asked for 45 cal muzzle loader bullets and been handed a box of .45 ACP. I've had a counter guy tell me that I was buying "reloads" from Remington because of a visible neck annealing mark. I really don't mind unless they are hostile, "I know what those are for and I don't approve!" when buying 7.62x39mm, for example.
Mike
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GunnyUSMC
Member
No. Not caught up on numbers. But the guy that has used Glocks for 20 years would most likely be able to give you some good advice on Glocks. But if he has never used a 1911, I don't think he could tell me much about them. Now, I have carried a Glock for the last 15 years for work and have owned a 1911A1 for the last 29 years. I could give you information on both, but like I said before, I'm no expert.
Archie
Member
Why limit the problem to guns? Along with firearms, ammunition, reloading and assorted fields, I study Theology, Cosmology and a smattering of Partical Physics. People tell me all sorts of nonsense without any sort of justification about all of it. What I find very interesting is to hear two people taking opposite sides of an 'issue' or subject and NEITHER of them can explain why - let alone offer an argument for - their deeply held position.
A good part of this problem is our society no longer even attempts to teach people how to think. Students are taught some - sometimes not all - facts, or the concept of self esteem, or being open-minded is good (without any idea of 'why' or why open mindedness does NOT mean instantly labeling anyone in disagreement haters.
As for believing old people are hard headed; consider the silliness of telling a man who has taken game every year for thirty years he's doing it wrong or has the wrong gun.
Also consider someone may know much about a specific field or discipline but little about another.
A good part of this problem is our society no longer even attempts to teach people how to think. Students are taught some - sometimes not all - facts, or the concept of self esteem, or being open-minded is good (without any idea of 'why' or why open mindedness does NOT mean instantly labeling anyone in disagreement haters.
As for believing old people are hard headed; consider the silliness of telling a man who has taken game every year for thirty years he's doing it wrong or has the wrong gun.
Also consider someone may know much about a specific field or discipline but little about another.
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