Anyone Get to Mess With the Belt Fed 9mm Upper, Yet?

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barnbwt

barnbwt

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I refer, of course, to the Freedom Ordnance upper that's apparently beginning to trickle out, to those brave few who put up pre-order earnest money.

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The concept of a belt-fed SMG isn't new, though it's not like it's been explored much, either. The Russians, in their never-ending quest to throw money at literally every idea possible, put together a prototype LMG in 7.62x25 called the LAD

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Sounds silly and/or pointless, until you realize the advantages of a squad of highly-mobile gunners with essentially limitless quantity of firepower (because belts are lighter than mags and pistol rounds much lighter than rifle rounds, linking several hundred rounds up is quite reasonable) that will still reach out to 200yds easily.

Has anyone had a chance to play around with one of the uppers, yet? From my perspective on the gun-building forums, there is --comically enough-- apparently much more demand for the links than for the uppers themselves, since everyone has a belt-fed subby idea they want to explore.* But I'm sure that the uppers themselves are not lacking for demand either, and now that they are shipping, some lucky folks should be able to give us the straight dope :cool:

TCB

PS-yes, I scored a handful of the links from a tremendously generous fellow, and will be using them to develop a miniature HK21-style sprocket type feed mechanism (made from a trashy 38spl cylinder/mechanism) at some point. Being designed for 9mm, the links can accommodate a huge array of cartridges (223, 300BO, 9x23, 7.62x25, 9x19, 9x18, 30 Luger, 22TCM) and being push-through disintegrating, they are suited for the simplest types of belt feed mechanisms (and if used in pull-out configuration, will accommodate 357mag and 38spl). The design is also clearly scalable, so I would expect links in 40SW and 45ACP sizes before long (well, unless they keep selling a hundred-thousand links a week like they have been so far)
 

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I have one on pre order. The YouTube vids make it look pretty awesome but who knows. I can post about it when I get it.
 
Sounds silly and/or pointless, until you realize the advantages of a squad of highly-mobile gunners with essentially limitless quantity of firepower (because belts are lighter than mags and pistol rounds much lighter than rifle rounds, linking several hundred rounds up is quite reasonable) that will still reach out to 200yds easily.
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I think it's pretty cool, but let's not kid ourselves here. A) 5.56 and 9mm rounds are nearly identical in weight. B) a 9mm is going to have around 2' of drop by 200yds. C) Every hundred rounds of 9mm is a little over 2.5lbs without links. If you go hooking several hundred rounds to that thing, it's going to become pretty unwieldy. I think I'd much rather prefer the lightweight and speed of swapping 30rd mags of 5.56 for serious purposes. Not to mention anything about terminal effect, range, or penetration. And I say this as a big PCC fan.
 
I neve needed a squad of mobile gunners but would likely pick an M249 if I did, can shoot belts or magazines.

I think it would be a neat toy though, just not sure if it is $2000 for an upper neat.
 
"I neve needed a squad of mobile gunners but would likely pick an M249 if I did, can shoot belts or magazines."
Me neither, obviously, since we have soldiers to do that stuff overseas. I was merely commenting on why I thought the idea had been worth some of the Soviets' interest. I suspect it was found needlessly small & lightweight in practice, considering how infrequent the need for fast/light infantry using overwhelming fire was during the time of its development. The PPSH/PPS were good enough for guard-duty and most infantry assaults. Most belt fed LMGs and HMGs get used for longer-distance fire suppression, and a pistol round truly would be a hindrance for such a role. With modern pistol munitions becoming capable of piercing most common armor, and special forces type groups with small numbers and light footprint in urban areas becoming more dominant, perhaps the idea is no longer so far-fetched?

"I think it would be a neat toy though, just not sure if it is $2000 for an upper neat."
I agree the price is kinda high (although it's not like the equally toy-etic Shrike 223 upper is much better, plus you have ammo costs to deal with) but prior to the recent --and I suspect, ultimately temporary-- glut of 223 production, 9mm was more economical. Still is, if you hand-load and use lead or powdercoated bullets. Hate to throw the "F" word around, but there is a rather derogatory attitude by most folks to the concept of belt fed guns of any size in the hands of civilians, whereas the guys actually using them for a living find them indispensable and plenty reliable (not unlike the 'tude about detachable box mags of high capacity, at one time). It's just a feeding system, same as any other, except this one has a higher ultimate rounds/lbs density than others, and the ability to fire continuously without reloading. Not sure how that's an intrinsically bad thing.

"A) 5.56 and 9mm rounds are nearly identical in weight. B) a 9mm is going to have around 2' of drop by 200yds. C) Every hundred rounds of 9mm is a little over 2.5lbs without links. If you go hooking several hundred rounds to that thing, it's going to become pretty unwieldy."
What is not equal in weight is what that 5.56 entails. The LAD machinegun prototype was 12.25lbs (using plenty of wood & steel in the PPSH era) vs. 17lbs of much more complex/expensive machinery in the M249. A gun not exactly beloved by all, in terms of reliability (yeah, most of the hate is directed towards the mag-feed function, but I suspect it can't be as reliable as an open-bolt blowback tube gun). That adds up to nearly 200rnds additional capacity from the empty gun alone, not to mention how much less bulk from the absence of magazines/springs/followers and weapon volume. Probably even more for a smaller bore round like Tokarev (or 5.7x28; I think a 1/2 scale M240 would be awesome). I haven't been able to track down a firm weight for a 'typical' FM-9 assembly, but I can't imagine it'd be heavier than a wood-stocked steel pipe the Soviets cobbled together.

Also worth mentioning, is how much less heat a 9mm or other pistol round can give off in automatic fire. ARs have a tough time pretending to be an LMG as we all know, but a 9mm SMG can fire practically indefinitely before the barrel starts to care (so you save another couple hundred rounds of weight in spare barrel). Much of the additional mass in an LMG over a rifle stems from the need to dissipate this heat. I'm sure suppressed usage only makes the issue more critical (and on that note, pistol rounds only really need a 10" or so barrel, so a short barrel beltfed with mondo can on the end gives up much less in max performance & bulk than would something like the M249 which may not even cycle with such a short barrel for all I know)

TCB
 
If you want the ultimate in barrel heat reduction and have the ability to carry thousands of rounds there have also been belt fed .22lr uppers produced.

If you wind up getting one, let me know, I can give you some instruction on how to build a linker like the one I built for my belt fed 308.
 
I know one thing. It sucks putting links together for 20 minutes just to burn thru them in 2. Almost makes me not want to shoot it..... Almost....
 
You need a linker, I built this one for my belt fed 308.

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I used a table router with a ball end bit to make the groves the cases sit in and drilled the angle iron for the links to stop against and the bullets to pass through.

So you lift the handle lay out the links, then bullets and pull the handle. Remove the belt placing the one on the end in the last position and repeat.
 
I'm curious to hear how long the links last. I saw on their website they provided an estimate, but curious if it will hold true.
 
Now doesn't this support the habit of "spray & Prey"?......
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Your never going to be an "operator" with that attitude. It's called "saturation fire"...
 
"I'm curious to hear how long the links last. I saw on their website they provided an estimate, but curious if it will hold true."
They aren't super tight to start with (maybe 5lbs to push a round in/thru), and do have a rough phosphate finish on them that will rapidly buff out. I suspect that any that wear out could easily be bent back into service, though; they're only 1/8" wide, and any pair of pliers could easily tweak them. My only concern is the super thin areas connecting the links could be fatigue prone, but this is steel, not aluminum, so it should be much less of an issue.

I wouldn't recommend twisting a belt to stop a runaway, though; that seems like it would torque up the little things right quick.

TCB
 
"Lot cheaper that other belt fed guns even if he has a FA lower."
This is why so many folks are excited about the links and uppers. Guys (not like me) who literally buy palletized ammo for their library of transferable machineguns stand to save...several machineguns' worth of money by getting their fun time with a pistol caliber rather than a rifle.

"Now doesn't this support the habit of "spray & Prey"?......"
No more than a pistol magazine that holds an astounding 17 rounds, far more than needed for any engagement (that doesn't involve wildly emptying the entire thing into a corpse)

TCB
 
"No more than a pistol magazine that holds an astounding 17 rounds, far more than needed for any engagement (that doesn't involve wildly emptying the entire thing into a corpse)"

explains why I am content with only six.....reality being what it is...
 
I got to play with mine a little bit. The upper seems to be built very well and it looks even better. I had to take the bolt weight out of it to cycle my light reloads reliably. Not a big deal. It's also more reliable feeding out of the belt bag than just hanging loose. It doesn't have enough juice to pull belt up with all the ammo hanging straight down. Ordered a Bering optics red dot that should be in this week. I still need a handful of elves to put links together tho. The links seem to be pretty tough. Not sure how long it will take to wear them out. All in all I'm happy with the purchase
 
ROAshooter said:
seems some have a larger budget for ammo than I do.......
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I've been to FA shoots where the guy I was with put over 500rds through his M2s and many, many more. 308's through his Mag 58... I would guess (and guess is all I can do) that from his point of view 9mm would seem almost free.
 
Hmm, I wonder if that's a way around any of those pesky magazine limits? No way can they claim it's a magazine, and so far I've never seen belt fed addressed.
 
I've been to FA shoots where the guy I was with put over 500rds through his M2s and many, many more. 308's through his Mag 58... I would guess (and guess is all I can do) that from his point of view 9mm would seem almost free.
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That's about right ammo cans of 50 and 308 and 5 gallon buckets of 233 and 9mm.
 
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