Anyone shoot purely for recreation, with no thought of self defense use?

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Let's go back to what I said:

There are a bunch of people who, for reasons that all boil down to cowardice...crippling irrational fear...go out and spend a bunch of money they can't afford on guns and shooting when they would be much better off with decent tires on a car they actually own, a bit of reserve money in the bank, less debt, some money for that smoking cessation program, or even just a decent set of clothes to wear to their next job interview. That is irrational and self-harming behavior caused by an inability to prioritize the risks those people actually face every day.

It is a mistake -- a major mistake -- to think that recreational shooters are somehow less "pro-gun" than people who think they need a gun because they are afraid of other people. It is
backwards.
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I'm not claiming any specific number, not 3% or 53%, so I don't need to cite statistics. Those people exist, I've met several, and if I've met several that means there are more.

You have tried to claim that a majority, or 53.6 million, or whatever, fit that category. I never did. If you want to cite statistics, cite them to back your claim.

Again, you keep trying to twist things, to put words in my mouth and then demand that I prove them, but it isn't going to work. I'm not going to cite statistics to prove something I didn't say.
 
I'm not claiming any specific number, not 3% or 53%, so I don't need to cite statistics.
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But you keep citing the "self defense coward," or the gunowner that bought one purely out of "irrational fear" because...........why?

Why do you take a rare example of a bad gunowner, over and over again, and make it seem like it is a prevalent problem?

You take a bad example of a gunowner and pit it against your perfect example of one as if that proves something? :rolleyes:

You owe every gunowner an apology.

Own guns, shoot gun, buy guns. Just remember that owning them is a RIGHT that must be fought for.
 
When are you guys gonna leave this horse alone?? Let it RIP! Although I'm losing respect for Ed and his assumptions about how the SD crowd is nothing but a bunch of paranoids living on the fringes. Where'd you get that line from? Sarah Brady by chance???::fire:
 
Why do you take a rare example of a bad gunowner, over and over again, and make it sound like it is a prevalent problem?
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Why do you take an entire category of gun owners, a group your own statistics show may be near 50%, and say that they are not really pro-gun, create a problem for other gun owners, and will be the first to turn their guns in?

And, EHL... no, it isn't the whole SD crowd, and it certainly isn't from Brady. One of the side effects of the Rodney King riots was that I lost a huge amount of respect for people who, in the face of real issues, make too much of personal safety when the risk is legitimately acceptable in the circumstances. You can blame Gates (the guy who also foisted SWAT on the world) if you want to blame anybody. I call cowardice where I see it.
 
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I don't think there is much to substantiate Ed's claims.... what he seems to be stating is nothing more than his opinion (kind of stated as fact).... he is entitled to his opinion (stating it as some sort of 'known' seems a bit overzealous, but, meh)...

Most of the people I know who take RKBA the most seriously are concerned about government tyranny and SD, not hunting or recreation...

Now, I could be in an odd group, but I really doubt it....
 
I call cowardice where I see it.
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<sigh> No, you call it where you think you see it. Kind of like a 3 yr old that thinks there is a monster in every closet. Facts prove differently, but you still can't convince the 3 yr old.

I made clear that I only insulted gunowners that don't support the RKBA. If that's not YOU, then why do you feel insulted ? :rolleyes:
 
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I never said *I* was insulted. :rolleyes:

And you have made it extremely clear that you are willing to assume people are not supporting the RKBA even when they say they are. When it has been suggested that you shouldn't use such a broad brush, you have replied that you think all pure recreational shooters will be willing to give up their guns because the few you have talked to seem like they would.

And of course it's my opinion ... this is an online forum. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But it's an opinion based on observation.
 
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I call cowardice where I see it.
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So I'm a coward because I carry a concealed weapon?

the risk is legitimately acceptable in the circumstances.
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Mugging, home invasion, armed robbery, rioting, etc are not acceptable under ANY circumstances in my book. If you feel differently that's fine.
 
So I'm a coward because I carry a concealed weapon?
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No, not at all.

You are a coward if, driven by fear, you spend money on guns and shooting (or take any sort of action really) in such a way that, rather than reducing your risk, you are actually increasing it compared to taking another action.

We all have fears. Sometimes we've got to suck it up and face them, however scary, because in the long run we're better off.

To quote myself from earlier in the thread (so we don't lose track of context):
There are a bunch of people who, for reasons that all boil down to cowardice...crippling irrational fear...go out and spend a bunch of money they can't afford on guns and shooting when they would be much better off with decent tires on a car they actually own, a bit of reserve money in the bank, less debt, some money for that smoking cessation program, or even just a decent set of clothes to wear to their next job interview. That is irrational and self-harming behavior caused by an inability to prioritize the risks those people actually face every day.
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That's the difference between simple fear and cowardice. Everyone has fears. Cowards let their fear increase actual risk. If you are a pilot in a light plane and the fan stops, do you hold Vbg all the way to your chosen landing spot... or as you get closer to the ground do you keep pulling back until you stall out or land short of the runway? The ground is scary when you don't know if you have enough altitude to make your chosen runway, and it is natural to try and pull up away from something scary, but responding to that fear in an irrational way only reduces your chance of surviving.

In your case...everything I know implies that you've got your bases covered.

As for risks not being acceptable... if you choose to live in a US city, even a city in AK, you face more risk of mugging, home invasion...your whole list...than if you moved to a farm in Nowhereville. You think the benefits outweigh the risks. Said another way you have accepted those risks as a necessary cost of your choice to live as you wish.
 
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Ed Ames said:
it's an opinion based on observation.
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The problem here is that people quite often observe only what they want to observe. They have a tendency, as you have done here, to ignore the information that is in-congruent with their pre-established thoughts, or dismiss it as 'not the norm'.

Scientists are constantly trying to find ways to eliminate that problem in their conclusions, but even under close scrutiny many still fail at that goal.

Now take a guy who has already formed his opinion, based on nothing more than casual observation around him personally, throw in the fact that he has no desire to come to a conclusion different than his initial thoughts and you have a recipe for 'no change in thoughts'.
 
You are wise to observe that Confirmation Bias is a tough nut to crack. It is a pervasive human failing.

The best tool I know for exploring ideas for unsupported bias (exploring them in general) is debate (argument, if you prefer)...when people openly discuss an idea it often creates new insight, shows each side a fresh perspective, and teaches new ways to understand a problem. Those, in turn, are corrosive to unsupportable bias. Well, short of designing a rigorous scientific study and trying to latching on to copious grant money to fund your research, then latching on to yet more grants to fund a rigorous study of the study, ad infinitum. It's the best cheap tool I know.

Good observation.
 
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Indeed, and no doubt I am as guilty as anyone. In fact, until you brought up those points (and a bit after), I would certainly have said (sort of matter-of-factly) that most of the people adamant about RKBA were self defense/tyranny oriented.... only because of my experiences... no reason to question them.... well, until now....
 
I would certainly have said (sort of matter-of-factly) that most of the people adamant about RKBA were self defense/tyranny oriented.... only because of my experiences... no reason to question them.... well, until now....
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Don't make the mistake of letting someone who once read about ONE guy who'd "give up his gun if everyone else did" convince you that there is a "self defense coward" behind every gun purchase.

Curoiusly, he never cited anything more than that. The rest of it was him posting "let's suppose that..." fictional characterizations. He wasn't even recalling a personal experience.

RoostRider, I'd say you have a far better grasp on reality than some people. As a matter of fact, the Founding Fathers themselves were rather adamant about the defense/tyranny thing. That's why they placed such a high value on THE PEOPLE owning guns.
 
Oh, don't get me wrong, I still think that the most adamant supporters of RKBA are oriented on Self Defense and Tyranny (I and most I know lean more towards SD than tyranny)... but what I am willing to admit is that this is nothing more than my opinion based on my experiences (not real scientific).... but the fact remains that I never really considered that there were recreational shooters out there who were as adamant as the SD/tyranny crowd about RKBA.... until now....

So, I'm just saying that my eyes have been opened somewhat from following this thread.

I think Ed should go to an IDPA or USPSA event and see what people think... although they call it a 'game' a lot of those people take SD very very seriously, and they also take RKBA seriously... I also think that a lot of people who would call the SD/Tyranny card just say it's for other reasons because they don't want to come off as SD/tyranny nuts...
 
I know im breaking up a heavy debate here, but im with op in that i really just shoot recreationally. I dont even actually own any guns as of yet, but do go out to the local range every couple months. Dont get me wrong, if i could fit it in the budget anywhere i would own a 308 and a 9mm, but then i would need to invest in a safe and ammo as well. And the money adds up quickly.

Im a resident of pa, but have been spending the majority of my time in the peoples republic of new jersey for the past year or so, so it makes little sense to me to make the investment at this time. Not to mention i live in some very safe suburbs, the type of place you dont lock your doors, can leave your car running when you run into 7-11, and just about the most violent crime in recent history has been some teenagers breaking into cars at night and stealing change / cds... So self defense really isnt even a concern. Though, if i were to take up permanent residence at my pa place, I would consider it, and prolly take a firearms safety / self defense course as there has been a rise in the amount of gun crime / drugs/ prostitution and such in some areas I would have to travel through on a regular occurence. Until then, though, I will continue to swing by the range when im in the area and put some practice time in while i make up my mind about what ill buy once there is a surplus in the budget ( read: no time soon. )
 
Even living in Canada I don't shoot solely for recreation, altrough a lot of canadian gun owners are far from considering using a gun in a self defense situation, we are a majority that have a gun ready to be loaded at all time in our homes. Just like americans, we strongly believe in RKBA, it's our right too.
And we know the world isn't driven by love and fresh water.
 
The one I cited (and identified - twice) is found here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun...e-america.aspx
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A very interesting and informative poll. Altho I'm not a statistician by trade, and polls do have a margin of error, I gleaned a coupla bits of info from it.

First, according to the poll, only 2 outta 3 gun owners use their guns for self defense. That means 1 outta 3 uses their guns solely for recreational purposes. A much higher number than many here have led others to believe......


Secondly, according to the poll, more gun owners have guns for SD than target practice. That tells me there's a small group of those who have a gun and a box of shells to go with it, but don't have the slightest idea how to shoot. These may be the folks Ed Ames is talking about. Those that have bought/own a gun purely outta fear.

Thirdly, almost 6 outta 10 gun owners use their firearms for hunting, and 2 outta 3 have them for shooting paper.....this tells me the majority of folks with guns do not own them primarily for SD/HD.

I have been called a cowering sheep on this forum and other gun forums because I do not carry a firearm everyplace I go, every minute of the day. Truth is, I'm not a cowering sheep, just a law abiding citizen. I live in one of the two sates in the union that does not allow CWC.........and open carry altho legal, is often confusing and confrontational to those that are not up on the law. There has never been a documented case of armed home invasion in the municipality I live in....but I still have weapons available(loaded, locked and cocked) when and where legal. I put approximately 5-800 rounds down range every month outta my centerfire handguns. I have owned, shot and hunted with guns for going on 50 years. I think it's hilarious, that those that do not know my circumstances and know nothing about the risks and the laws where I live, are the first to critique my stance on RKBA. Must be a sign of their superior intelligence, eh?
 
Anyone who calls you a coward for not carrying illegally is on shaky ground at best.

Anyone who calls you a coward for not open carrying is very ill equipped to deal with reality (and has probably never open carried themselves aside from in some remote town at best)

I think the ideology that everyone should be armed at all times is ridiculous, even though I carry almost all of the time. There are LOTS of good reasons not to carry, not the least of them being the hassle of carrying a gun, coupled with the likely-hood you will need it....

Each person has to weigh their own odds and come up with a reasonable solution. Advice about 'gun logic' on the internet is worth what you pay for it... nothing....
 
Thirdly, almost 6 outta 10 gun owners use their firearms for hunting, and 2 outta 3 have them for shooting paper.....this tells me the majority of folks with guns do not own them primarily for SD/HD.
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Interesting conclusion, in that it leaves out the 67% total that say they own them for defense.

Secondly, according to the poll, more gun owners have guns for SD than target practice. That tells me there's a small group of those who have a gun and a box of shells to go with it, but don't have the slightest idea how to shoot. These may be the folks Ed Ames is talking about. Those that have bought/own a gun purely outta fear.
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Your conclusion #2 also misses the mark.

The poll says: The poll also shows that most gun owners use their guns for each of these three purposes: crime protection (67%), target shooting (66%), and hunting (58%).

67% say they own a gun for defense. This would include any person that ed ames insolently refers to as "self defense cowards." Yet, 66% say they own them for target shooting. It's clear that many people own and use guns for more than one purpose. You could conclude that only 1% of gunowners that cite "defense" as their reason do not also target shoot.

Let's look at that 1%. Maybe they're too old, already think they're good enough, are too busy to go out and practice, or maybe they think that having a gun is like having a talisman to ward off evil simply by its presence. (which happens quite a bit, actually) Let's be generous and say that 1/10th of that 1% simply bought one out of fear. A fraction that hardly seems worth considering, yet one that some people gleefully paint as representative of the whole.
 
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Interesting conclusion, in that it leaves out the 67% total that say they own them for defense. This tells me that many people own guns for more than one purpose. 67% say they own a gun for defense. 66% say they own them for target shooting.
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No I didn't leave out the 67% that own them for SD........I just concluded that since the other two reasons were well over 50% that again..... the majority of gunowners do not own guns PRIMARILY for SD.


Clearly, there is over-lap
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yeah...that's what I was tryin' to say.
 
If it's one of my carry guns, I think about it. If its one of my playtoys I don't.

"Play time" guns can be used for SD and the play time figures into the use of the gun for SD if it comes down to it. I would never consider my Mosins or my 1903 S&W handejector etc. SD guns, unless that's all there was left.
 
No I didn't leave out the 67% that own them for SD........I just concluded that since the other two reasons were well over 50% that again..... the majority of gunowners do not own guns PRIMARILY for SD.
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But it does mean for the majority, defense IS one of the reasons cited.

For many of those, it might well be the primary reason.

For example, if I'd taken that poll, I'd have answered "yes" to all 3, yet "defense" far outweighs the other two in order of importance.
 
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