AOW a mossberg 500?

[Chris taylor]

How would one go about making an any other weapon out of a standard Mossberg 500? Could I have a dealer friend pistol grip and shorten a normal shotgun and register it as an oaw from him? Or will he have to purchase a 200$ tax stamp to modify it? Any comments or questions/suggestions are welcome...

 

[Sam Cade]

Don't think that you can do an AOW, AOWs like what Serbu does are done on recievers that were never assembled into long-arm format.

You have to do SBS.

 

[evan price]

Once it is built as a 500A it is no longer AOW'able. Serbu buys virgin receivers for their super-shortys. You'll have to go SBS and a $200 stamp.

 

[Sam1911]

If you bought a 500A that came as the "Persuader" or "Cruiser" PISTOL GRIP ONLY style you could file a Form 1 to make it into an "Any Other Weapon" (smooth-bore handgun).

If the shotgun came with a buttstock, or you ever had installed a buttstock on it at any point, it cannot be an AOW (because it is now a firearm "made from a shotgun"), and must be a Short-Barreled Shotgun. You file the same Form 1 to make that.

The making tax is $200 for either one. (The transfer tax for an AOW that's already registered is only $5.) The SBS route makes much more sense as you can then add a stock or go with the pistol grip as you prefer. If you make it an AOW you cannot then add a stock and must stick with the "PGO."

 

[lobo9er]

gun laws are unreal stupid is all i got to say after reading sams post

 

[Sam1911]

Most gun laws are stupid. The NFA "Title II" provisions rise to a level of nonsensicality unrivaled in the world of absurd legislation.

 

[Quiet]

gun laws are unreal stupid is all i got to say after reading sams post

Blame the National Firearm Act of 1934 for what defines a Title 1 firearm & Title 2 firearm and what kind of Title 2 firearm is made from a Title 1 firearm.

 

[highorder]

The moment handguns were removed from NFA 1934, Title 2 firearm legislation regarding SBR and SBS should have gone with it. It's absurd.

 

[jmorris]

Unless you are have the FFL and SOT it doesn't make any difference form 1's are $200 an AOW will transfer on a form 4 cheap though.

 

[CoRoMo]

Something like this...
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=206492057
...is where you'd want to start.

Just find out for certain, the complete history of the receiver.

 

[Chris taylor]

Yah Coromo! That's what I was thinking too... Just go get a pawnshop special for a 150 bucks, then receiver switch, hack and weld then transfer it from my dealer when the papers come through! That's how much? 205$? I like that a lot!!!

 

[hirundo82]

You could make an AOW out of a NIB pistol-grip-only shotgun (which might be easier to find locally than a virgin shotgun reciever), since that isn't considered a shotgun by the ATF (transfers as "other firearm" rather than "long gun" on the 4473).

If you are going to be making it rather than buying, I really don't see the point of making an AOW rather than an SBS since the tax is the same. I don't think there is anything that you can do with an AOW rather than an SBS, and having the SBS stamp allows you to put a stock on it if you should so desire.

 

[Quiet]

If you are going to be making it rather than buying, I really don't see the point of making an AOW rather than an SBS since the tax is the same. I don't think there is anything that you can do with an AOW rather than an SBS, and having the SBS stamp allows you to put a stock on it if you should so desire.

One benefit of the AOW over the SBS, is for people who live in states (CA, NY, WA, etc.) that do not allow the ownership of SBSs but do allow the ownership of AOWs.

 

[ironhead7544]

I asked an NFA licensed manuf. about this and he said you can make an AOW out of a standard shotgun. The cost is a 200.00 tax stamp. But it can then be transfered as an AOW for a 5.00 tax stamp.

 

[mp510]

I asked an NFA licensed manuf. about this and he said you can make an AOW out of a standard shotgun. The cost is a 200.00 tax stamp. But it can then be transfered as an AOW for a 5.00 tax stamp.

A non-07/02 has to pay $200 to make/register an AOW. A 07/02, like your friend, can register it 'free' on a Form 2 (if he makes it) and transfer it to you for $5 on a Form 4. If you wanted to build an AOW, it would be adventageous to look into this method.

 

[snakebite129]

little confused

What's AOW and SBS??? Reason is cause I have a Maverick 88 and have been thinking about changing things up a bit.

 

[Sam1911]

What's AOW and SBS???

Two flavors of weapon that are specially regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934. "Title I" firearms are things like normal rifles, shotguns, and handguns, such as can be sold by any gun dealer, or face-to-face between citizens of a state.

"Title II" of that law covers things like machine guns, silencers, short barreled rifles (SBR), short barreled shotguns (SBS), destructive devices (grenades, explosive munitions, AND large-bore weapons like 20mm rifles), and a catch-all category of odd concealable firearms known a "Any Other Weapons" (AOW).

Short-Barreled Shotguns are any firearm meeting the definition of a title I shotgun (to include being designed to fire from the shoulder) which have a barrel less than 18" long (and/or 26" overall). If you start with a shotgun and cut it down to shorter than 26" overall, and/or less than an 18" barrel, you are making a SBS.

One of the categories listed under Any Other Weapons are smoothbore handguns. If you start with a bare receiver and build a shotgun that is less than 26" overall and/or less than 18" barrel length -- but it has only a pistol grip, no butt-stock -- you would be making one kind of AOW. If you really want to do this, rather than make an SBS, you can start with one version of "shotgun" that came from the factory with only a pistol grip. That's usually easier than finding a factory-new bare receiver.

(The ATF has ruled that when a weapon is made, ONCE, into a shoulder-fired weapon, it is either a rifle or shotgun. That means that anything else you make from it that is in pistol configuration is "made from" a shotgun or pistol, which is one of the definitions of an SBR or SBS under the NFA. This is why you can't make a Thompson Contender that is in RIFLE configuration back into a pistol without registering it as an SBR.)

If you're going to build a shorty shotgun of some sort, you'll pay the same price to make and register either an AOW or SBS. If you register it as an SBS, you can run it with a stock or without. If you register it as an AOW, you can't add a stock. Might as well go SBS.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This is why you can't make a Thompson Contender that is in RIFLE configuration back into a pistol without registering it as an SBR.

The US Supreme Court disagrees with you, Sam:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZO.html

It is proper, therefore, to apply the rule of lenity and resolve the ambiguity in Thompson/Center's favor. See Crandon v. United States, 494 U.S. 152, 168 (1990) (applying lenity in interpreting a criminal statute invoked in a civil action); Commissioner v. Acker,361 U.S. 87, 91 (1959). [n.9] Accordingly, we conclude that the Contender pistol and carbine kit when packaged together by Thompson/Center have not been "made" into a short barreled rifle for purposes of the NFA. [n.10] The judgment of the Court of Appeals is therefore Affirmed.

A Thompson Contender can be made back and forth between a pistol and a rifle as much as you want. So long as you don't combine a pistol barrel with the rifle stock and foregrip to actually make a firearm in the SBR configuration.

Mech Tech Systems also disagrees:
http://www.mechtechsys.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5

http://www.mechtechsys.com/index.php

 

[Sam1911]

I agree completely, Navy, that this is how it SHOULD be interpreted. However, the statements of the ATF of the last few years state that their interpretation of the Supreme's opinion in Thompson v. US is that the allowance only applies to kit guns sold as both rifles and pistols.

we conclude that the Contender pistol and carbine kit when packaged together by Thompson/Center have not been "made" into a short barreled rifle for purposes of the NFA.

(emphasis mine)

ATF has taken that ... rather unfortunate ... clause to mean if your Contender didn't come in a kit (and very few DID) then you may NOT swap parts at will.

Mech Tech's opinion on the matter wouldn't seem to be particularly valuable, as they neither make the laws, nor interpret them, nor enforce them.

Certainly, Mech Tech cannot somehow pretend that their kits -- sold as aftermarket additions to various platforms, none of which are T/Cs -- were "packaged together" by T/C, as specified by the Court.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I just don't see how switching a shotgun between pistol grip configuration and shoulder stock configuration can possibly invoke the NFA at all. Both guns in their final states if barrel is >18" and OAL is >26" are non-NFA items. I don't see how switching the configuration between the two could possibly fall under the NFA as long as a combination is not made that is actually defined in the NFA as controlled.

For instance:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/015813541695.html

Would this be NFA controlled ^^^^?

Notice where that kit is sold at impactguns:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/mossberg_shotguns.html

Then click on the Mossberg Pump Shot link, it is under there, NOT under the NFA shotgun link. Or is it an oversight on Impact Guns part?

 

[Sam1911]

I just don't see how switching a shotgun between pistol grip configuration and shoulder stock configuration can possibly invoke the NFA at all.

No, it doesn't, so long as it remains over 26" OAL and/or 18" barrel. The problem with the T/C kit guns is that one of the configurations is under 26" because it is a handgun. Any "concealable" gun (defined by that 26") OAL "made from a rifle" falls into Title II. Hence, you can't make a Title I pistol from a Title I rifle.

 

[Sam1911]

Now, there are some recent ATF letters which really show some of the odd twists this whole train of logic may take, in that there are a few versions of pistol-grip-only shotgun -- originally sold as PGOs and therefore "other firearms" on the 4473, not shotguns -- which the ATF has written MAY indeed have their barrels cut down below 18". Since they are not Title I shotguns, the 18" barrel rule doesn't apply. The 26" OAL rule does still apply, though.

There were a couple of threads on that recently. I'll try to dig them up later.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This thread:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=554257

Especially this link in that thread:
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

 

[hirundo82]

I agree completely, Navy, that this is how it SHOULD be interpreted. However, the statements of the ATF of the last few years state that their interpretation of the Supreme's opinion in Thompson v. US is that the allowance only applies to kit guns sold as both rifles and pistols.

ATF seems to construe the decision in Thompson/Center as narrowly as possible, to the point that I wouldn't buy a Mech Tech conversion kit unless I had a handgun stamped as an SBR.

If Mech Tech were smart, they would talk to some of the manufacturers (maybe one of the domestic 1911 manufacturers) about selling kits of their conversions packaged with a pistol. I don't think the ATF could find a way around that.

 

[Acera]

If Mech Tech were smart, they would talk to some of the manufacturers (maybe one of the domestic 1911 manufacturers) about selling kits of their conversions packaged with a pistol. I don't think the ATF could find a way around that.

It would be smart for MechTech, but stupid for the other manufacturers to open themselves to such a legal liability. I don't think that MechTech has any legal ground to stand on with their product. Once you make it a carbine, it is a rifle for life unless you get a stamp. I think the ATF will find a way around anything they want, ethical and/or legal or not.