appleseed for first rifle experience?

[hokiemojo]

Hey everyone. I was looking at an upcoming appleseed event and was trying to learn a bit more about it. From what I gather, this is an opportunity for novices to learn fundamentals of shooting a small caliber rifle while learning some american history as well. I have a few questions that I was hoping some of the experienced members could help me with.

1) I don't own a rifle, but a 10/22 has been on my wishlist for a while. When looking at the list of things to bring, it says that the rifle I bring already needs to be zeroed. Other than borrowing a rifle from a friend (I don't know anyone else that shoots though), how would I go about doing this. Could I figure it out on my own with a one hour session at an indoor range, or am i setting myself up for disappointment?

2) Am I correct in assuming that I don't need to know anything at all about shooting except what I read in my manual, or should I have some hands on experience first?

3) How much does it matter that all my ammo is of the same caliber? It says to bring between 500-1000 rounds of the same ammo. I know accuracy will be affected by different ammo, but I've been buying boxes of 50-100 rounds here and there for my 22/45 (still haven't gotten to try it out yet). unfortunately, I buy what is in stock and it is always a different brand or type. Ive got some CCI 36gr HP minimags, some CCI tactical, some remington yellow jackets, and some more CCI that I can't remember the type (stingers?). All in all, I'm close to the 500 rounds I'd need, but no more than 150 of any one kind. Will I need to suck it up and buy on an auction site?

4) any other thoughts on appleseed that you'd like to share? I've been reading all over the web and on here, but I'd welcome more info/stories if you want to share.

Thanks everyone!

 

[TyGuy]

I much prefer the Marlin 795 over the 10/22. It doesn't have as many accessories as the 10/22, but it's getting better. It's much cheaper and easier to use too.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[SuedePflow]

I'm doing this (Appleseed) with my father this weekend. I'll post back on Sunday and let you know my thoughts about it.

My father suggested we ty it for something fun to do. I don't know what to expect, but I'm going there open-minded and I'm sure I'll have fun. I've been shooting .22lr since I was 14 years old, but I'm sure there's still things to be learned.

Here's what they told us this week though:

•Make sure you have a reliable rifle, at least 2 magazines and ammo for the weekend. We shoot with slings so preference rifles that have swivels, studs and GI slings. If at all possible, zero your rifle prior to Saturday morning.
•If you are short of ammo, several instructors have volunteered to bring ammunition from their personal stash for sale at their cost.
•Make sure you check the weather and dress appropriately. Current forecast is for high-60's/low-70's with chance of rain on Sunday. WE SHOOT RAIN OR SHINE so bring the right clothing (there is no such thing as bad weather...only poor clothing choices).
•The range is likely to be wet and/or cold. Bring a pad or mat to lay on. You will be much more comfortable.
•Snacks and water. It is a long weekend and you'll need to stay hydrated and full of energy. Calories don't count at an Appleseed.

Regarding the rifle; I'd venture to say the Ruger 10/22 is one of the best options. That's the rifle I'll be bringing with me. In general, my 10/22 eats almost any ammo I put through it. But if you want consistency, you'll probably want to source a brick of the something decent. I believe most or all of the shooting is done at 25 yards. It's a pretty simple and quick process to get a 10/22 zero'd in at 25 yards at your local range.

 

[rdhood]

More info than you wanted, but here goes:

I have done three and a half appleseeds, scored "Rifleman" 5 times in a row at my last half-day Appleseed. I have been the newbie, and I have watched newbies. Here is my honest assessment:

For most folks, the first time out with a new rifle becomes a miserable experience. You are just learning your rifle at the same time you are trying to shoot accurately. My first Appleseed, I could not get my sights on target, I learned to hate the stock 10/22 sights (peep sight or scope is MUCH better) and I scored an average of about 100 on each AQT.

2nd Appleseed, things went better. My takedown screw kept coming loose, I scoped it this time, my scoring average went up to about 160.

3rd time, I had installed a post for the takedown screw, I had swapped to a GM barrel (unnecessary, but I got it for half price at their christmas sale, and had switched to a brand of 22lr that misfed the least for me). This time, my average was about 203.

Finally, I went to the 2nd day of an Appleseed where all I did was shoot... and I shot great. I got all the bugs worked out from my first three outings. I scored in the 220s and 230s all day. It snowed, never got above 40 all day, and I still scored.


I have watched many newbies in this time.. from my wife and son to those all around me. Universally, they have a not-so-great experience the first time around. The gun is new, shooting is new, the weather can play havoc. I know many people that gave up. Persistence and a plan of action is the key. With every single Appleseed, I came away with a list of things that went wrong that I would fix before the next Appleseed. And I stuck to fixing those things on the list before making my next try. Further, I now do that every time I go to the range. I always have a goal/purpose for my shooting to become a better shooter. Go with an open mind and NO MATTER WHAT don't get discouraged. Concentrate on learning your gun. concentrate on the things they teach you. What anyone else does or can do is of no concern to you. Concentrate on getting better.

So now to your questions.

1) a 10/22 is fine. Yes, you can zero the rifle in an hour at the range. You will have a much better understanding of the rifle, you will be more comfortable handling, and you will be ready to go from the first shot on Appleseed day. beg/borrow/steal/make some benchrest equipment, and zero it. I am SURE that there are shooters in your area who can help you if you just reach out. Plenty of people like the stock sights, but you might want to consider a scope or peep sight. Techsights makes a great peep sight, and there are several inexpensive scope (a Simmons Mag22 is what I use... about $50).

2) you need no previous knowledge about shooting. That said, hands-on will make you feel much more comfortable with the rifle.

3) ammo. Every single 22lr on the face of the earth likes it's own particular ammo. You have to be able to get through about 40 rounds without a jam. Federal bulk would ALWAYS jam once or twice an AQT in my rifle. I switched to CCI Blazer, and I have had ZERO jams. Other folks have completely opposite experiences. The only way for you to know for sure is to get out there and shoot. When you find a brand that your rifle likes, stick to it!

I started with a stock rifle. First I pillar bedded ($10) it to stop the takedown screw from coming loose. Then I added a Simmons scope ($60). You might want to think right away about going to a scope or peep sight. Each is about $50/$60 , so its whatever you want. Plenty of folks do it with the stock sight, but for me either option is so much better. I also got a trigger job ($40) from Brimstone. Amazingly, when I started out I couldn't tell a good trigger from a bad trigger. By the time I shot rifleman, I could feel every little bump and grind in the trigger. If I were going to do just three rifle enhancements, these would be it (scope or peep sight/ basic trigger job/pillar bedding). You can also do a bolt hold open mod with a dremel... or buy a new plate for $10.

You will need a USGI sling... about $15

You will need at least two magazines. I went with four.


the place for 22: rimfirecentral.com

 

[SuedePflow]

Ammo jams count against your score?

 

[rdhood]

Ammo jams count against your score?

Somewhat. Its a timed event. If you jam, you lose time. If you jam, you are not shooting therefore you are not scoring. You have to clear the jam and pick up where you left off. In a round that lasts a minute, a misfeed/jam could eat 1/4 to 1/2 of your time.

The AQT consists of four rounds of 10 shots each. Each round is timed. The off hand (standing) and prone (small targets) rounds are sufficiently long that a jam won't hurt you . But the two middle rounds (one prone, one sitting) are only about a minute each. If you have a misfeed or jam in one of these rounds, there isn't much time to recover. For example, In my third Appleseed I missed shooting rifleman twice by just a few points because I had a jam in one of these two rounds, and didn't get all my shots down range in time. I moved to CCI Blazer for the next Appleseed, and had no problems.

 

[PJSprog]

My wife and I are talking about attending one as well (have a thread about it in the Rifle forum). Those who have scheduled events coming up soon, please come back and relate your experiences. Would love to read your stories.

 

[rule303]

Going in as a novice may actually work to your benefit since you don't already have bad habits to overcome.

 

[Warp]

Hey everyone. I was looking at an upcoming appleseed event and was trying to learn a bit more about it. From what I gather, this is an opportunity for novices to learn fundamentals of shooting a small caliber rifle while learning some american history as well. I have a few questions that I was hoping some of the experienced members could help me with.

1) I don't own a rifle, but a 10/22 has been on my wishlist for a while. When looking at the list of things to bring, it says that the rifle I bring already needs to be zeroed. Other than borrowing a rifle from a friend (I don't know anyone else that shoots though), how would I go about doing this. Could I figure it out on my own with a one hour session at an indoor range, or am i setting myself up for disappointment?

2) Am I correct in assuming that I don't need to know anything at all about shooting except what I read in my manual, or should I have some hands on experience first?

3) How much does it matter that all my ammo is of the same caliber? It says to bring between 500-1000 rounds of the same ammo. I know accuracy will be affected by different ammo, but I've been buying boxes of 50-100 rounds here and there for my 22/45 (still haven't gotten to try it out yet). unfortunately, I buy what is in stock and it is always a different brand or type. Ive got some CCI 36gr HP minimags, some CCI tactical, some remington yellow jackets, and some more CCI that I can't remember the type (stingers?). All in all, I'm close to the 500 rounds I'd need, but no more than 150 of any one kind. Will I need to suck it up and buy on an auction site?

4) any other thoughts on appleseed that you'd like to share? I've been reading all over the web and on here, but I'd welcome more info/stories if you want to share.

Thanks everyone!

1. The rifle does not have to be zero'd, but it will definitely help you (and everybody else) out if it is close. You will want your shots to be on paper. If you buy a factory rifle and don't adjust anything, it will most likely be close enough as-is.

You can contact the shoot boss ahead of time, most likely, and arrange for a loaner rifle, which will likely be a 10/22. Generally there are multiple instructors with loaner rifles at any given event. In my experience. Just bring some ammo.

Unless it specifically says so, you are not limited to .22lr. Plenty of centerfire rifles on the lines at many Appleseeds.

2. An Appleseed isn't really meant to be fore people who don't know anything at all about firearms. You are expected to know what the muzzle is, what the trigger is, what a magazine is, how to put rounds into your magazine, how to operate your rifle, etc. BUT if you don't, and especially if it's a 10/22, just go a little early and, when you sign in at the registration table, tell them. They will get somebody to work with you to get you up to speed.

3. Different cartridge weights and velocities and all of that won't be a big deal for shooting a .22lr at 25 yards. Just bring what you have and don't worry much about it. Your point of impact might shift between them, but it won't be enough that you cannot continue to work on the fundamentals. Your groups just might shift around a little bit. No big deal.

4. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask in this thread. You can also PM me, or anybody else who offers. (I instruct at Appleseeds)


As mentioned above, you will really really want a USGI web sling. On many rifles you will need to install sling swivels first. The slings are $15 on ebay or at the Appleseed store. Many shoot bosses will have slings available for purchase at the event for ~$15, but that is not guaranteed, if you plan to go that route I would contact them ahead of time to find out for sure.

A little bit of background/base firearms knowledge is extremely helpful. Words will be used with the assumption that shooters know what they mean (or ASK if they don't!). Muzzle, chamber, front sight post, rear sight, reticle (for optics/scopes), magazine, safety, group, point of aim, primer, bolt/action, stock, etc etc.

You are probably going to feel like you learned 5% of what was offered at your first weekend, since you are not going in with a strong background. That's okay. And it's not uncommon. Just be aware that it isn't a one weekend and done kind of thing. Most people, even 'experienced' shooters, take a few weekends to score "Rifleman" on the qualification target Appleseed uses. And most people, even those who qualify Rifleman their first or second time out, take much longer than that to really truly 'get it'. I don't think I totally get all if it yet, and my next step is a red hat, I only really need to do the history portion now (that will make sense after you have attended one).

 

[Warp]

Going in as a novice may actually work to your benefit since you don't already have bad habits to overcome.

I agree with this.

And this is why women and children are very often, IMO, much easier to instruct. This is a common thing. Guys often think they know how to do certain things, or think they ought to know, or they have practiced bad habits so much that they are hard to overcome.

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

HOWEVER, there is a difference, IMO, between a novice a rank newbie. If you don't know how to prep and insert your magazine, how to lock your bolt back (and I mean know as in you can do it consistently, in a hurry, while distracted by 10 other things, because you can do it without thinking even when tired and dehydrated whiel wearing gloves), you are going to be struggling from behind the entire time.

BUT THAT'S OKAY.

There may come a time when other shooters move on to other positions, and you keep shooting prone. That's fine.

One of the things the instructors should be telling you is that YOU are the best judge of what is best for you. If you are not ready to move on to shooting seated, keep shooting squares while prone. There's always your next Appleseed to catch up.

 

[TonyDedo]

In the past I've served as an instructor for the Appleseed program. It's a fantastic program for a novice, or even experiences shooter, and I strongly recommend it.

1) Technically, you can attend an Appleseed with ANY rifle - they will work with you to make anything work. However, you will get the most from the curriculum with a magazine fed, semi auto rifle with military (post & peep) sights, and 40 rounds of magazine capacity (4 x 10 round mags, or 2 x 20 round mags, or 1 x 40 round mag, etc).

If you want to shoot centerfire ammo, an AR-15, M1A/M-14, M1 Garand or M1 Carbine are all great choices. If you're shooting .22LR, an AR style rifle (M&P 22 or .22LR conversion kit), 10/22 with Tech Sights or Marlin 795 with Tech Sights are work well.

Regarding zeroing the rifle, you only need to be on paper at 25 yards before you attend the program - the instructors will help you sight it in from there. You should also make sure your rifle is properly functioning.

As for the 10/22, I think a 10/22 with Tech Sights (after market military style sights you can install on your 10/22) and a couple other small upgrades is the best training rifle you can buy. If you're considering buying a 10/22 anyway, you'll find it very valuable to have at the Appleseed clinic. Search for the "Liberty Training Rifle," which is the name they've given to the modified 10/22 they recommend.

If you're still on the fence, many of the Appleseed instructors have extra 10/22s they loan out for clinics - if you contact your local instructors, you might be able to secure one to borrow for the clinic and try out.

2) It would be helpful to know how to operate your rifle, at a basic functional level (how to load, unload, lock your bolt back, etc). You should also know the basic firearm safety rules. However, the Appleseed instructors will cover all of the above, and be able to field any specific questions you may have.

3) I'll be honest, if you're shooting for Rifleman (a high score on the shooting test they'll give you), you WILL be frustrated if you show up with a bunch of different types of ammo, because your zero will change when you move from one type to the next. However, you will be able to adjust your zero as you go, so it won't be critical to your ability to complete the program, just frustrating and may ding your final score. Again, check with the Appleseed instructors - they may be able to sell you a brick of ammo at cost.

 

[smoakingun]

As an instructor, I see a ton of different rifles show up at most events. If you do not currently have a rifle, almost any functioning rifle with a way to mount 1 1/4 inch sling swivels, will do. Be it a bolt rifle or a semi automatic. Detachable magazine or tubular. The instructors will work with you. Don't get stressed about the gear.

 

[smoakingun]

The goal of the program is to make Riflemen. A rifleman knows his equipment and how to use it. We will help you learn to make sight adjustments to your rifle. We will help you learn to make it work for you.
Your ancestors could make cold bore hits out to 250 yards with a flint lock rifle.
If they could do that with primitive sights and an explosion right in front of their face, you can become a rifleman with a stock 10/22

 

[Warp]

The goal of the program is to make Riflemen. A rifleman knows his equipment and how to use it. We will help you learn to make sight adjustments to your rifle. We will help you learn to make it work for you.
Your ancestors could make cold bore hits out to 250 yards with a flint lock rifle.
If they could do that with primitive sights and an explosion right in front of their face, you can become a rifleman with a stock 10/22

A 10/22 is a great gun to learn with at an Appleseed.

I upgraded to tech sights with mine before my first Appleseed, though. Those tech sights are a wonderful training tool and the only thing I highly recommend for a Liberty Training Rifle beyond the obvious (web sling)

 

[pikid89]

I agree smoak...i remember about a year and a half ago when you whipped me into shooting shape at my first appleseed haha

 

[SuedePflow]

Had a blast today! Before today, I've never once used a sling to shoot. And I'm very pleased with the difference that it makes. I shot a 193 on my first AQT. Second one, I made Marksman with a 222. My goal tomorrow is to break 230's.

I used a Ruger 10/22 and junk Winchester white-box ammo. I experienced several misfeeds and stove pipes, but I made the best of clearing and continuing. I wish I had quality ammo to bring. Most of my stash is whatever I was able to find at a good price over the past 9 months. I'll definitely be bringing quality ammo next time I attend an Appleseed. I'll post more about it tomorrow or Monday. Time to hit the hay.

 

[Warp]

220 is expert, not marksman.

So...you got yourself a Rifleman patch?

Saturday only...try to do the full weekend next time. Lots more shooting on Sunday which can really help polish up the stuff you do on Saturday through (correct) repetition.

 

[tomrkba]

I use CCI MiniMag exclusively in class and never had a problem. They're worth it. The 10/22 is a great gun and everyone should have two.

I had great luck with my Springfield M1A (irons only) out to 400 at Ramseur. I had less than stellar performance using iron sights from an AR-15 even to 300. Definitely get a 1-4x optic on an AR if at all possible. Even so, I'd put a 1-4x on an M1A since my eyes have degraded over the past few years.

Go with 30 caliber if at all possible. You won't regret it.

 

[SuedePflow]

220 is expert, not marksman.

So...you got yourself a Rifleman patch?

Saturday only...try to do the full weekend next time. Lots more shooting on Sunday which can really help polish up the stuff you do on Saturday through (correct) repetition.

Oops, yeah I ment rifleman, not marksman. That's what I get for posting when half asleep.

I'm heading back right now for another day of shooting. They said they might even split us up in teams and break out a dueling tree. Should be fun!

 

[J-Bar]

"get on paper at 25 yards and zero from there...???"

What range SHOULD the rifle be zeroed at?

 

[tomrkba]

"get on paper at 25 yards and zero from there...???"

What range SHOULD the rifle be zeroed at?

It depends upon the gun and purpose. I use a 100 yard zero for 5.56x45mm because it has tge least deviation between distances that I commonly shoot.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

First things first. The best thing you can do is get in touch with your Va instructors. Head to the Virginia forum at the Appleseed site and ask for assistance: https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=rboeaq5t9l1kiu6o1tu5otu515&board=221.0

While you're thinking about the rifle, don't forget to take care of the shooter. You will be outside all day. Rain or shine or snow (although we will head inside for lightning or tornadoes ). Dress appropriately. You'll need sunscreen, even in the winter. Don't forget a hat. Bring water. Bring good food - energy bars, trail mix, etc. You'll want something with energy but that won't weigh you down. A comfortable shooting mat will also be a good investment. Most Mi instructors own several of the Midway brand ones. Having these things will help you keep your energy and focus so you can absorb instruction the best.

You didn't say how long it is until the shoot, but it may be easier to ask for a loaner rifle if time is short. Many Instructors and Shoot Bosses have loaners just for this purpose (secretly, it's just an excuse to buy more rifles ) and it may work better for your first time than rushing to set up a rifle right before a shoot if you're not really familiar with rifles.

If there is enough time, the 10/22 is a great rifle (don't short change the 597 either, my personal favorite ). The stock iron sights will be challenging however. For a better experience get some tech sights or a scope. If you opt for a scope, get the mounts as low and far forward as possible. A regular 3-9x scope turned to 3x will work great.

While we have had people show up to an Appleseed with the rifle literally new, in the box it is best if you have at least some familiarity with your rifle. Both you and your instructors will appreciate it. Know how to insert and remove the magazine. Know how to put rounds into the magazine. Know where the safety is and how to lock the bolt back. Make sure the rifle is clean and lubed before the event. Make sure the screws holding the action to the stock are tight.

You'll really want sling studs and a 1 1/4" GI sling as the instruction is geared toward use of the sling and the sling will help tighten your groups. Don't let it stop you if you really can't get this as we jury-rig slings all the time.

Zeroed at 25yd is best, but if you can't get it there at least being within a few inches of your point of aim will work (although it won't look good on the Sat AM Redcoat). We cover how to zero a rifle Saturday morning after first covering some fundamentals to help shrink your group size.

3) How much does it matter that all my ammo is of the same caliber? ...

4) any other thoughts on appleseed that you'd like to share? I've been reading all over the web and on here, but I'd welcome more info/stories if you want to share.

Thanks everyone!

You DEFINATELY want it all the same caliber! A 10/22 shoots 22LR caliber ammo and shouldn't be fed anything else. What you are referring to is different brands and loads of the same caliber. Yes, you will want all the same brand and loading also. As you mention, your rifles zero WILL change switching between different manufacturers and velocities of ammo! That will frustrate even an experienced shooter and add a needless complication to your weekend.

For Appleseed, the most important thing is that your rifle reliably functions with your ammo. Any bulk ammo should provide sufficient accuracy. If you cannot find any, ask your Va instructors first before hitting Gunbroker. There is a chance someone has some extra they can use to help a shooter.

1) Technically, you can attend an Appleseed with ANY rifle - they will work with you to make anything work. However, you will get the most from the curriculum with a magazine fed, semi auto rifle with military (post & peep) sights, and 40 rounds of magazine capacity (4 x 10 round mags, or 2 x 20 round mags, or 1 x 40 round mag, etc).

You will need at least TWO magazines, but ten round capacity in each is fine. Stages two and three of the AQT require a mag change and no single stage calls for more than ten rounds.
We don't do many "speed AQT's" in Mi, so having 40 rounds of capacity is not often needed. Ask your Va instructors as they will know best.


Have a great time at the event! Keep a teachable attitude and enjoy the history!

 

[Warp]

"get on paper at 25 yards and zero from there...???"

What range SHOULD the rifle be zeroed at?

For an Appleseed it should be zero'd at 25 yards

 

[justice06rr]

Lots of good info here. Thanks for all those who gave advice.

I've been looking to attend an Appleseed even in my area (as soon as I can gather some ammo).

 

[hokiemojo]

I stepped away for a few days, but wanted to send a generic thank you to everyone that responded. There was some fantastic info provided and and more people can add would be appreciated. In particular, stories about your own experiences.

Finally, sorry about saying I was wondering about using various calibers. What I meant to ask about was brands, or types within a cailber. Sorry about that. I knew better, but that probably caused some confusion as to what I meant.