AR 15 (5.56) versus 12ga Shotgun for HD

[Girodin]

If it were me and if I had a rural setting, I would go with a decent 7.62 NATO rifle with a scope on it

Not the best set up for a shot across the room. We are talking about a home defense weapon not a ranch rifle. Even on my ranch I typically carry my AK and it is more or shooting varmints that I may happen across than anything.

Most of us really dont have people trying to engage us from 500+ yards away even in rural places. If that is a major concern then you probably have profession security or you are duct taping on your ceramic trama plates anyway.

 

[itgoesboom]

Eh, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

AR-15 has the advantage of precision, faster follow up shots, less recoil, faster method of reloading, higher capacity, and since some break-in's involve the bad guys wearing body armor, the 5.56 round penetrates that better as well.

The shotgun is very effective, but the mythical traits are pretty much just that.

-The spread of buckshot is not going to be more than a couple inches at close range, so you will still have to aim, but at the same time, it's not as precise as the carbine.

-The argument about 9-pellets vs. 1-bullet is true, but, doesn't take into account the velocity difference. Shotgun pellets moving at 1200-1300 fps are very different than a 5.56 bullet moving @ 2700-3240 fps. The bullet, being longer than wide, will tend yaw, and many top performing 5.56 bullets will fragment when that occurs. This is a very effective wounding mechanism.

-Additionally to the above point, when you factor in a person firing 2-shots from a shotgun, how many shots could a person with an AR-15 fire in the same time period? Not as many as the pellets in 2 00 buckshot shells, but I think it would be hard to argue the amount would be less effective than those 18 pellets.

-The sound of a person racking a shotgun may or may not scare a bad guy, but counting on the psychological reaction of a person who very well may be psychologically defective (after all, they are a criminal) seems to be a poor tactic.

-With regards to penetration, anything that is going to penetrate deep enough into a bad guy to reliably force him to give up, is going to be able to penetrate enough to put others at risk if you make a bad shot. Point being: Firearms are dangerous weapons. Place your shots carefully, you are responsible for what you fire.

As for me, I have both, but the shotgun is currently my go-to weapon, simply because of an eye-dominance issue. I am faster on target with the shotgun for the first shot with both eyes open. I am working on changing that, and if it does change, than my AR-15 will be #1. Until then, my Mossberg 500 loaded with 00-buck is what I would reach for.

Like I said, 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Is it really the same bullet, I didn't think hornady sold the t2 tap bullet to anyone as a component, only a different non cannulered 75gr bthp.

Both Hornady's 75gr .223 TAP and the Black Hills Match use the Hornady T1C bullet (T1 Match bullet with cannelure). Only the 5.56mm Hornady TAP (not available on the open market) uses the T2 bullet.

If you want to know everything there is to know about 75gr Hornady loads, check out this extremely detailed 27 page thread from AR15.com:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506&page=1

Terminally; both the T1C and T2 have about the same performance, so you aren't losing anything there.

 

[ctdonath]

Here we go again ...

Both will do the job admirably.

Make sure the shotgun is as short as possible yet has maximum capacity (I'm thinking Mossberg 590 here). The advantage is big messy holes; disadvantages are limited capacity (you run out you're done) and slower followup, and defeated by body armor. "Spread" and "scary racking noise" are overrated. Distance is an issue.

I chose a shortie AR with suppressor loaded with 30 rounds of Mk262. Compact size is more maneuverable, capacity should be more than needed (you run out you're done), followups are instant, "overpenetration" is relatively negligible, silencer mitigates noise levels, body armor not an issue, hot & heavy 5.56 is (despite controversy) plenty to wreck an assailant's day. Distance, in my neighborhood, is not an issue.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Bartholomew Roberts -

That is a very interesting article, thanks for sharing the link... I know this is a bit of thread drift, but I read this in the Ammo Oracle:

From a 16" barrel the 77 grain round tested above was still at 2400-2450 fps at 200 meters - and still fragmenting.

Referring, I believe, to a 77gr SMK (Mk 262 Mod 1). That statement is followed by this:

Perhaps most promising, however, is the 77 grain Nosler NATO loading from Black Hills. (Not to be confused with the 77 grain Sierra Match King which has a longer neck). This particular round has a very short neck, high fragmentation and wonderful muzzle velocity.

Finally, on the same page is this statement:

Some of these heavier bullets, probably because of their length, maintain their fragmentation down to below 2100 fps and as a result have a much longer range of fragmentation, out to as far as 300 yards.

So when I put all this together, and compare it against the data on the 75gr Hornady TAP FPD / 5.56, it seems like the Hornady, although a vast improvement over SS109 and a good improvement over M193, isn't necessarily the best heavy bullet for .223 - I read out of all this that the Nosler is superior...

Could you provide your perspective on this? Greatly appreciated.

 

[ctdonath]

One under-analyzed observation is that fragmentation is more important to military rounds, which by convention cannot have hollowpoint properties ... this contrasted with, say, the TAP ammo which _can_ be built to expand in more efficient/effective manners not acceptable to international agreements.

 

[elChupacabra!]

ctdonath -

Actually, it is my understanding that, for anti-personnel applications, fragmenting rifle rounds are probably both more lethal and effective than expanding hollow-point ammunition of equivalent caliber, as long as the round can be reliably expected to fragment at typical engagement ranges. Although a .223 HP or SP round may very well expand and cut a larger (than original caliber) wound channel, the same .223 caliber round which essentially explodes and spalls violently within the body can destroy a vastly disproportionate amount of tissue. As I've heard it explained, the fragments essentially turn the temporary wound cavity into a permanent one - which, for high velocity rifle rounds, can mean an extraordinarily large permanent wound cavity. The benefit of the HP or SP rifle round is that it will (presumably) continue to expand well past the fragmentation ranges of FMJ ammunition, which usually stops fragmenting below a certain (relatively high) velocity threshhold; 2700 FPS for M193 or M855, 2100-2200 for 75-77gr, etc., translating into max effective ranges of between 50m (for 14.5" barreled rifles firing M855) and 300m (for 20" barrels firing Mk 262 Mod 0). HP or SP would probably continue to expand (at least some) way out to 500 or 600m, although this is just a guess.

The TAP rounds, although they do have a small cavity at the front ("Open Tip Match" or OTM is a common military designation to avoid the "hollow-point" implications of BTHP), are not designed to expand, but rather rely on fragmentation as a wounding mechanism. True Hollow Point rifle ammunition needs a much larger cavity to expand reliably, in my understanding.

The great irony is that fragmenting rifle rounds were not considered or included in the Hague convention of 1899 and are, thus, presumptively acceptable for military purposes, although they are (as I understand) far more lethal against human targets than merely "expanding" or "flattening" rifle rounds.

 

[jjohnson]

SD Is Self Defense. Shotgun Range.

No, I don't need a mousegun that'll send an errant bullet a mile after somebody missed trying to "spray and pray." The neighbors wouldn't appreciate it in my semi rural setting.

To me, "Self Defense" sort of does mean the bad guy is close.... within shotgun range... so I'm happy to use a 12 gauge for..."social situations."

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Could you provide your perspective on this? Greatly appreciated.

Based on the gel results I've seen and the reading I have done, the Hornady 75s have the shortest neck of any of the heavy rounds but still reliably penetrate to 12 inches in bare gel. The early yaw can be both a good thing (nice, unobstructed torso shot) and a bad thing (O look, he has a chest rig of AK mags).

The key to the extended range of the Mk262 has more to do with the 5.56 pressure loading than the bullet type.

Having said all that, keep in mind that there is what is called 'fleet yaw'. This is a phenomenon where ammo from the same lot can have different terminal performance based on the individual rifle.

Training is by far the most important factor to consider. Training is much more important the difference between M193 and Mk262. When you start talking about the differences between Mk262 and Hornady 75 TAP, you are really getting into 'How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' areas.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Bartholomew Roberts - Thanks for sharing.

Of course I agree that toolset is inferior to both midset and skillset, and that simply having a rifle loaded with any sort of ammunition, along with the will and skill to use it, is 95% (if not more) of the issue.

With that in mind, I do appreciate the differences between various ammunition types, minute though they may seem. I'm sure that neither of us keep our rifles loaded with Wolf Military Classic, for instance

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your insight.

 

[TheDriver]

I'd rather the 12.

My setup is an 870 Police Magnum, 8+1 Federal LE 00...

If I need more than that, well, it probably just isn't my day

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

How about a semi-auto 12 gauge with an open bore and a 10-shot magazine?

Many people think that a 12 Gauge shotgun will throw a pattern across a room - or a house - that's 10-feet wide....that's just not true (it will probably be closer to 2 inches wide). But at 25-to-50 yards, then it is magic (nice pattern)!

Also, you can practice on sporting clays, skeet and small-local bird relatively cheaply.

Nascar

 

[kcshooter]

and since some break-in's involve the bad guys wearing body armor,

Uhhh, really?

Not really a concern of mine. YMMV.

 

[strat81]

Uhhh, really?

Really.

They are in the minority, but do a google search using combinations of the terms 'burglary', 'home invasion', 'bulletproof vest', and 'body armor'.

Another delightful tactic crooks are using is impersonating police officers executing a "no-knock" warrant.

If six guys in black tac gear bust through your door shouting "Police!!! On the floor!!!", would you shoot, or would you comply?


But yeah, given the original question, I vote AR.

 

[benEzra]

In an urban rural setting,id most likely go with the AR but in the city here and the closeness of the neighbor's houses a shotgun,as IMO would be the best of choices.12 gauge slugs...Saiga 12...Having a AR,as we have,a Colt CAR 9MM is our 'other option' for HD,but 5.56 in these houses out here,WAY to much penetration of the walls.

12-gauge slugs penetrate like a .45-70 (>30" in gelatin, and can punch through barriers that will stop a .308), whereas .223 JHP's penetrate less than a 9mm in both gelatin and building materials.

Using a .223 does NOT mean you have to use FMJ.

How about a semi-auto 12 gauge with an open bore and a 10-shot magazine?

Many people think that a 12 Gauge shotgun will throw a pattern across a room - or a house - that's 10-feet wide....that's just not true (it will probably be closer to 2 inches wide). But at 25-to-50 yards, then it is magic (nice pattern)!

Also, you can practice on sporting clays, skeet and small-local bird relatively cheaply.

If that's what you like and are competent with.

You can practice with an AR relatively cheaply as well, and IPSC/IDPA style carbine matches and 3-gun can provide additional shooting venues.

 

[kcshooter]

Really.

They are in the minority, but do a google search using combinations of the terms 'burglary', 'home invasion', 'bulletproof vest', and 'body armor'.

Another delightful tactic crooks are using is impersonating police officers executing a "no-knock" warrant.

If six guys in black tac gear bust through your door shouting "Police!!! On the floor!!!", would you shoot, or would you comply?

Since each one of these that show up in the google search say drugs were suspected to be involved, again, I'll state that I am not one bit worried. The attackers and victims were suspected to know each other, and serious resistance is obviously expected if they show up like this. These also seem to be incidents isolated to a area of phoenix, so the possibilities of them all being connected are more than slightly probable.

I don't think that I run a risk of a gang of drug dealers in full body armor, "tac gear", and fully automatic weapons breaking in my door for a few hundred bucks and a home theater system. And the question of would I shoot or would I comply would end with the same result regardless of my own weapon, wouldn't it??

Again, I live in a suburb. Regardless of how 5.56 may not penetrate as much as 9mm, 45acp, or 00 buck, #4 buck penetrates less than all and will allow me to defend myself more than sufficiently. (I'm also very good with a shotgun.) When the instance of attacks by roving gangs wearing body armor becomes a risk of those who aren't selling drugs, I may rethink this. Until then, I'll leave the foil helmets to those who feel they need them.

 

[ctdonath]

as long as the round can be reliably expected to fragment at typical engagement ranges.

That's the key "if". From what I gather, it's not as reliable as we'd like. I'd rather a reliable hollowpoint than fragmentation that didn't. (That said, I'm still loading with Mk262 per circumstances & unreliable info. Even intact, a 77gr running over 2000fps should be enough to stop things.)

 

[CU74]

12 gauge pump loaded with #4 buckshot standing in the corner, handgun on the nightstand. I don't see the usefulness of a rifle as an inside-the-house firearm. I also keep a round in the chamber of the shotgun. (Yeah, I've heard those "sound of racking a pump shotgun" stories, but converting some dude to Christianity is not my objective.)

 

[Girodin]

I don't see the usefulness of a rifle as an inside-the-house firearm.

What if it had a supressor? Then IMO it would be a very very good inside the house firearm, one with at least one very distinct advantage over a shotgun.

Right now I prefer my shotgun with 00 buck for HD. I would like to eventually get a suppressor for my HD rifle. If I get that I think I will be swayed back to the rifle as my primary HD weapon.

I think the answer to this question is that which ever you feel the most comfortable with is the right choice if there are no special needs added into the question. Either can be set up to do just fine as a HD weapon.

 

[Powder_Burn]

Buckshot penetrates more wallboard (sheetrock) than nearly any 5.56/.223. Black Hills Mk262 or Hornady 75gr TAP suit your needs better.

 

[45B@cav]

I'll stick with my old Mossberg for the house. 2 3/4 Buckshot. If you have a family it's best not to go through walls. If the intruder is on the back 40 I would take my AR. A .223 will go through alot more stuff than Buckshot. Check the FBI ballistic car door test. Are you serious Powder Burn?

 

[Kino74]

Saiga S-12. Everything I like about semi auto rifles over pump shotguns but packing a nasty punch. I wish I had one with a 20 rd drum.

 

[SpeedAKL]

Both will work just fine....

 

[CU74]

Quote:
I don't see the usefulness of a rifle as an inside-the-house firearm.

What if it had a supressor? Then IMO it would be a very very good inside the house firearm, one with at least one very distinct advantage over a shotgun.

A rifle with a supressor is still a rifle, albeit a quiet rifle. As I understand it, the objective is "air in, blood out". At in-house ranges, 12 gauge #4 buckshot will make a substantially larger larger hole for the "air in, blood out" than any rifle I own, (or care to shoot).

Rifles are, by most definitions, longer-range firearms than shotguns. Since I live in a rural area, I have several rifles suitable for social work. Should I have to deal with a problem out at the gate to our drive, (200+ yards) my scoped .30-06 1903A3 should do nicely. (For a zombie horde I might select the .308 M1A1, or a .30-06 Garand.)

I still do not see the usefulness of a rifle as an inside-the-house firearm. Perhaps your house is somewhat larger than mine.......

 

[Glamdring]

IMHO either will work if the operator is up to the job. I would worry more about having good cover and planned lines of fire.

The price difference is smaller if you factor practice ammo expense into the mix. How much does a thousand rounds of slug or buck cost compared to a thousand rounds of 5.56? And that is less than a 100 rounds a month for practice.

Recoil also matters for practice. You will fatigue and/or flinch much sooner with a gauge if your using full power ammo than you will with a 5.56.

Also unless your real lucky and have a very nice shooting range it is hard to find targets that last for even 3 or 4 rounds of buckshot at realistic home defense distances.

My research leads me to doubt even OO buckshot for shot (bird or buckshot is very range and other factor dependent, if opponent is behind partial cover even buck may be difficult to get a telling hit with), I prefer a foster slug for the 12 gauge.

With the 5.56 you can make multiple hits on one or several targets VERY quickly.

I have both. And practice and use both.

Another point to consider. A well prepared home defense plan would include not only good cover and planned lines of fire, but also hearing protection and a team plan if you have a significant other and/or family (ie kids).

Having body armor and active hearing protection for all the adults and mature kids is a good idea. And if someone leaves the safe room to clear I think it would be better if they had pistol and shotgun so if a VCA gets there weapon and perhaps body armor those remaining in the safe room still have an advantage.