AR-15 Handguard and Muzzle device debate.

[Centurian22]

I've killed a severe chunk of my monthly cellular data plan today researching hand guards on seller sites, manufacturer sites and YouTube.

I'm looking for free floating, 13-15", light (for the given length), modularity = being able to place rails only where I want them but with the option for the 45's not just 12, 3, 6, and 9o'clock positions. I had looked at the Samson Evolution Keymod ($205) series here: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/285...aluminum-matte as a $65 less expensive alternative to the BCM KMR 13" ($270). It wasn't until I Happened to come across the manufacturers videos for the Samson Evolution Free Float hand guard (including new keymod versions) here: http://youtu.be/xKyIoy0csqo that I discovered they can mount things at 16 different positions around the "clock" of the handguard!!!

So here is my breakdown and pros/cons list of the top 4 choices:

Midwest Industries G2 SS 15" x 1.5"OD 10.9oz $190
Pro's: Least expensive, smallest OD, easy mounting of accessories (they just screw into the holes) comes with 3-2.5" rail sections one with QD sling point, claimed lifetime warrantee edit: just noticed they use full normal rail sections. Con's: mounting 'only' at 12, 3, 4:30, 6, 7:30, and 9, no option (without the use of offsets) for mounting on the 45 degrees off the top on either side, also fewer options in where to mount along the handguard. Requires the replacement of the barrel nut though given that this is a new build this would only affect future swaps / cleanings.

Samson MFG Evolution (and Keymod version) 15" x 1.8"OD 13.4oz $194 ($205 for Keymod version) Pro's for both versions: 16 MOUNTING POINTS! (I like versatility), second lowest price, 1.56"ID fits most suppresses (handy if I ever go that route), easiest mounting to rifle (uses existing barrel nut). Base model comes with 2-2" and 1-4" ($55 value) rail sections. Keymod version does Not come with any sections of rails but allows for keymod attachment at 3, 6, and 9, in addition to all other backer plate mounting positions, keymod attachment is easier than backer plates. Samson accessories fit both original evolution and keymod versions. Con's: Edit, I just noticed their Rail sections are not solid but have the middle cut away, I have to imagine this weakens the design, backer plates are harder to deal with than directly screwing on like the MI or keymod, added cost of buying rail sections if I opt for the keymod version. I like having the versatility if keymod catches on, but don't know if its really worth the added cost/loss of 'free' rails. Samson says they stand behind their product and to contact them with any issues and they will take care of it but I don't see mention of an actual warrantee.

BCM KMR 13" (couldn't find width but looks similar 1.5-2" range) 7.7oz $270
Pro's: Lightest by far, all 8 standard mounting positions all keymod, appears to include two rail sections, seemingly better stronger more secure mounting of handguard to supplied barrel nut by opposed locking bolts (best described here: http://youtu.be/-AjlvIsCFp0) edit: also solid rail sections. Con's: highest price, no idea if Keymod will catch on (but at least there are rail sections available now), relatively new to market compared to the others, like the MI required replacement of the barrel nut but again not a big issue.

At this time I think I'm favoring the non Keymod Samson. Keymod would make things easier, but it's not like I'll ever be in a rush to swap accessories where it will matter all that much.

Thanks to VVelox for the link on the muzzle device study (http://vuurwapenblog.com/2013/10/03/ar15-muzzle-brakeflash-hidercompensator-comparison-part-1/), I finished reading it today. I believe I would be fine with the A2 but the upgrade options aren't much more either. The YHM Annihilator ($36)

is supposed to match if not outperform the Phantom ($34) (as it is designed after the phantom) in flash suppression. The phantom was barely beat out by the AAC Blackout ($56) and only one other in performance. The Annihilator doesn't need to be indexed. Nice for swapping, may not be so nice shooting prone due to kicked up dust/debris, though I hardly ever shoot prone so... take that for what it's worth. I'm holding off on Brake / Comp research for now until more is available on the YHM slant brake, and because I won't be adding one until after the rifle build. Much more to work on before that. For now I think the nod goes to the Annihilator for style, CQB (muzzle punch), flash suppression, and ease of install/swap.

So there's where I'm at as of going to bed tonight, sorry for the long winded post, I have a 'bad' habit of being too detailed and over analyzing things (could ya tell?).

Thanks for any input of experience with these or similar products!

 

[Mick_W]

I love the non keymod samson I put on my recent build. I only needed top and bottom mounts with a possible side mount for a light though.

 

[Centurian22]

Looks good! No problems lining it up straight with the upper for accurate sight placement?

 

[BHarada]

Apex handguard

Another option is the Apex handguard. Their 15" extended rifle handguard is 13oz and has slots for rails at 45° increments, although the top rail position has proprietary screw hole spacing so needs Apex's rails or a set of custom drilled blank rails.

 

[Mick_W]

No issue will only go on straight because of the tabs that go on both sides of the upper rail.

 

[Centurian22]

Sorry I didn't explain better, I meant issues with the rail pitching up or down in reference to the plane of the top rail, not so much rotation. But glad to hear it had functioned well for you.

 

[Louca]

sorry for the long winded post, I have a 'bad' habit of being too detailed and over analyzing things

Centurion, no need to apologize. In the end, you will have to be real happy with what you have. I always feel if I don't do enough research and wind up not liking something, I only have myself to blame. So I usually research things to death before shelling out the bucks.

I am watching threads like this very closely to learn all I can. I am one of those strange people that doesn't want a quad rail with stuff stuck all over the place; I only want a handguard that gives me something to hold with no stress on the barrel. I want it to have a few holes in it for some ventilation and a good grip, but not one that leaves dents in your hand the longer you hold it.

For the life of me, I cannot see why people put a front sight on the end of a free floating handguard instead of on the gas block, especially when a sling is mounted to the side of the same handguard.

Lou

 

[Nickb45]

http://www.lancer-systems.com/business-areas/small-arms/products/carbon-fiber-handguard/

 

[Centurian22]

That Lancer carbon fiber looks cool, but at $265 and higher weight than the KMR, with similar weights to the Samson and Midwest Industries at a much lower price point, it's just not for me. Only possible 'niche' I see for it is as Louca says "have a few holes in it for some ventilation and a good grip, but not one that leaves dents in your hand the longer you hold it".

Louca; not 'strange' at all, there is a major trend away from the quad rail now. Have you looked at JP tubes? http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.4_hg_mod.php
Daniel Defense: https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/modular-float-rail.html
Not great reviews but lower price: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/11...ded-ar-15-aluminum-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding
DPMS no air holes or rail but lowest price: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/14...ard-ar-15-aluminum-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding
DPMS vented: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/14...15-vented-aluminum-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding

I would say 'longer sight radius' is why people (including me) plan to put a sight at the end of the rail. You make a very good point about the possibility of flex due to the sling or baracade support, bipod etc. potentially inducing inaccuracy to the front sight on the handguard. In most cases including mine, the irons are for close backup only, the primary optic is mounted to the upper receiver. Also it's tough to get a long handguard for further out gripping and support with a railed or sight gas block part of the way down the barrel. Some now have cut outs for the gas block but I can't stand the look of them. I would have to imagine that unless you're putting alot of strain on the sling (especially if its close to the receiver and not out by the sight itself) any potential flex induced inaccuracy would easily be lost in either 1) "combat accuracy" 2) irons accuracy or 3) Made up for by the significantly longer sight radius. Just did some math for a carbine length 16" barrel and I get a 40% increase in sight radius. 21" if at the end of a 15" rail plus 6" upper receiver compared to 15" sight radius of 6" upper receiver plus 9" 'out' to the carbine gas block / front sight. 21-15=6" difference 6/15x100 = 40% increase. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or have missed something.

Louca, not trying to 'pick at you' in any way. Just shedding my light of reason on your question. It's nice to see there's someone else out there that 'researches things to death'. For me it was ingrained into me by my mother when I was young and homeschooled to thoroughly research things before getting into them (such as new pets) and it has carried with me ever since. Also as you said of you're not happy with your choices and didn't do the research it's your own fault. Add onto this that I have a relatively boring job that keeps me away from home for a month at a time when all I can do to stay 'connected' with my firearms passion IS to research things and you get this. Lol

 

[GBExpat]

This thread reminds mind of how very happy I am to not have the AR Accessorizing Monkey on my back. 'spensive!

I have 1 with A1 HG&FH and 2 with A2 ... plenty of cheap ammo stockpiled years ago ... and I am completely satisfied with my AR15 Stable.

O'course, there are many other Monkeys, some of which spend too much time on my back ...

 

[Louca]

Louca, not trying to 'pick at you' in any way. Just shedding my light of reason on your question.

No, no, no, I don't feel picked at, at all. This is the way discussions should be! Thanks for the links. So far, I am considering JP Enterprises and Samson Evolution handguards, but I have just begun my study. I hope you are right about the quad rail fad going away; it's good to know I am not totally alone in my opinion.

I totally understand the reason for going to the longest sight radius possible, to reduce aiming errors. But keep in mind that the further down the tube you go, the greater the error will be for a given force on the tube. If forces on the tube will be well known and consistent, like flexing upward as you hold the bottom of the handguard, then that error can maybe be compensated. But forces like slings are not always consistent.

Having said all that, I am not sure how much of a difference it really makes. I am an Engineer and when I see something I know can add error, I like to reduce it or eliminate it if possible.

Lou

 

[greyling22]

I'll toss this out in the ring as well, and feel free to disregard it: utg released an all made in america slim rail. I gave it a stab and have been very pleased. Everything else I have heard about it is positive as well. pictures of it installed on my gun are posted here http://imgur.com/a/T852I#2 it is not keymod, it only mounts things at 12, 3, 6 and 9, and is currently only available in 13", though I hear a 15" is on the way. What it does have going for it: a) slim (1.65" OD) and B) cost. I got mine for $93 shipped, and cost seems to matter to you (OP).

giselle's wife has a company, ALG defense, that makes a fairly sexy 13" rail. http://algdefense.com/13-ergonomic-modular-rail-black.html for 150

and then there is always the troy alpha rail in 13 and 15" versions for 190 or so.

 

[Centurian22]

Wow that UTG looks amazing for the price! Especially for anyone that doesn't want the "45's" as a mounting point. I have a UTG bipod that works great. I think they do an awesome job of bringing great products into a much more affordable price point. That ALG looks awesome too! By far the best combo of mounting options (45's), weight (10.85oz with barrel nut), and cost $145, I've seen yet. It's good that I have time before buying this rail as I will be interested to see the reviews on these.

Troy is unfortunately off my list of companies I am willing to financially support due to the reasons given here: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...t-the-hells-the-problem-with-troy-industries/

I'm very tossed up about how much I feel I "need" the 45 degree mounting options. It's mostly for possibly the sights (which they make 45degree adapters to hang off the top rail for) on the right and I feel like a flashlight with an end cap on button would be better on the left 45 than at the 9 o'clock position. Choices choices far too many choices.

Louca: glad I didn't offend. I have been told I have an engineers mind so I completely understand the thinking on minimizing or eliminating issues no matter how insignificantly small their potential affect may be. The funny thing is we are both striving to accomplish the same thing through the same logic but reach different conclusions as to what may produce the best (most stable) results.

But keep in mind that the further down the tube you go, the greater the error will be for a given force on the tube.

I have definitely been thinking about this and it has me debating the 15" vs 12"-13" handguard options, though again I feel at that point (unlike comparing say a 9" to a 15") the potential difference is moot. This is what drives me to want to make sure I buy a truly solid and secure handguard even if it costs me almost as much as my barrel ($270 vs $309 respectively). I didn't even know that a 15" could be used on a 16" barrel until just a few days ago and now I've become pretty obsessed with the concept. I love the look of it (not what you see on every other AR-15 at the range), the ability to hold it as far out as possible without shooting my own fingers lol, the longer sight radius, and being able to put the bi-pod darn near right under the muzzle. I have to believe that would improve potential accuracy by reducing the amount of "travel" of the muzzle due to pivot on the bipod compared to having it anywhere further back. As an engineer I'm curious if you concur or have another view point on it.

 

[Louca]

The funny thing is we are both striving to accomplish the same thing through the same logic but reach different conclusions as to what may produce the best (most stable) results.

Yes, there are some similarities and differences in our goals, too. On this next AR build, I am considering the open sights as "alternate" sights as opposed to backup sights. Yes, they could be used as a backup when the primary optical sight fails. But if the iron sights were used only for BUIS, I would not be anywhere near as concerned about some probably small amount of error with a free float handguard flexing a bit.

Although I have not worked this out mathematically yet, I am thinking the effect tube length has on aiming error is NOT linear, but more like a 1/X relationship. The effect of extending the sight radius from say 5 inches to 10 inches would have a far greater impact than increasing it from 10 inches to 15 inches. So except for the possible comfort or ergonomics of holding on to the handguard near the end, having a longer handguard for less error might not make that much difference (especially if they are BUIS).

Lou

 

[Centurian22]

Wow, it's incredible to 'meet' someone who thinks about these things at an even more in depth level than I do (my wife would never believe me if I told her this). Thinking about what you've said it makes sense. In my last paragraph of my previous post I was referring to the potential increase in flex from the 13" to the 15" rail, not the extended sight radius. Though I am interested in both. The flex on any free float rail is going to have a lot more to do with how it secures to the barrel nut in my opinion, than any difference noticed from extending the 'lever' by 2".

This will likely be the next part of my rail search that I over analyze is comparing attachment designs. Though I'm not going to go to nuts with it. Another suggestion made to me last night was the SLR Rifleworks rails.
http://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=66
Though lacking in mounting options for the "45's" and being higher priced and less known than other options I don't think it's beating out my other choices. It does have the lowest weight of any 15" rail I've found.