AR-15 popularity

[Doc7]

All of the above!!

 

[Geno]

Horsemen61:

Sorry for your loss! Those boating-accidents are bad. You have my condolences.

Geno

 

[AlexanderA]

Mostly I bought mine because the gooberment said I shouldn't be allowed a weapon of war.

In 1968, at the age of 23, I was just starting my collection of U.S. military small arms. That's when I bought my first AR, a Colt SP1. I was frankly surprised that such a close cousin of the current-issue military rifle was available to civilians. I had to jump at the chance to own one, because I was convinced that they eventually would be outlawed. Well, here we are, 50 years later, and they haven't been outlawed yet (in most places).

In 1968, AR's were rare, niche weapons. That's when they could have been outlawed with few waves being created. Now, it would cause a major convulsion. The legality of the AR-15 makes for interesting history.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I have often called the AR-15 the "Barbie gun", as it is mostly plastic and you can dress it up any way that you want.

That's not really accurate. It's really more like Johnny Long-Torso, that can be built any way that you want.

That's always been one of its big attractions to me, anyway.

 

[Charlie98]

The legality of the AR-15 makes for interesting history.

The history of the AR-15 is interesting, I don't really know about the legality of it, it isn't any different than any other non-Class III weapon.

 

[kBob]

Alexander A,

Just a little reminder, in 1968 there were still a lot of reserve and guard units armed with the M-1 and you could have one of those.

If a legislature is able to rail road a bill before the public can comment they can do most anything.....take a look at Florida's new restrictions on transferring an AR15 to a person under 21 years old. And we WHERE one of the most gun friendly states around. I had looked forward to helping The Boy pick out parts and build his own AR this coming November.........

-kBob

 

[AlexanderA]

Just a little reminder, in 1968 there were still a lot of reserve and guard units armed with the M-1 and you could have one of those.

As I recall, in 1968 it wasn't easy for civilians to get hold of M1 Garands. (The reason for this was precisely because they were still issued to military units, and kept in reserve for such use.) This was in marked contrast to M1 carbines, tons of which had been unloaded to the public by the DCM in the previous decade. To get a Garand from the DCM, you had to prove you were actively involved in competitive shooting. Even then, there was a lifetime limit of one.

I bought my first Garand, a Winchester, in December 1969. I was unaware at the time that this was built on a scrapped receiver that had been rewelded, and that the barrel had been sleeved with a surplus Springfield barrel. (I still have that gun as a reminder of my early collecting naivete.) This is how Garands were getting into the commercial channel in those days.

 

[AlexanderA]

The history of the AR-15 is interesting, I don't really know about the legality of it, it isn't any different than any other non-Class III weapon.

The semiautomatic AR-15 was approved for commercial sale, I believe, in 1964. This was before the "readily restored" language was added to the NFA definition of a machine gun by the GCA of 1968. If the NFA was worded in 1964 the way it is today, I don't believe the AR-15 would have been approved. (It can be converted to fully automatic by some fairly minor machining operations. Certainly less than "8 hours in a fully equipped machine shop" as stated in at least one court case.)

Since the AR-15 was already approved, it would have been difficult for the ATF to disapprove it based on the changed wording of the NFA. Also factor in the cozy relationship that Colt had with the government at the time, since it was the primary contractor supplying the M16 rifles.

There was a lot of two-way feedback between Colt and the ATF. For example, it became apparent sometime in the 1969-70 time frame that hammer follow-down -- resulting in sporadic automatic fire -- would occur if the disconnector was removed. Colt was allowed to suspend sales of the AR-15 until it could effect a redesign to correct this problem. The solution was to introduce the so-called "beveled" or "unshrouded" bolt carrier and the "notched" hammer. If the disconnector was removed in such a gun, and the trigger was held down, it would hopelessly jam after the first shot.

Previously-sold AR's were not affected by this change. And after a few years, the beveled bolt carriers and notched hammers were quietly discontinued. Clearly the ATF was complicit in all this.

Another example is the ATF memo that stated that 5 M16 parts -- the selector, hammer, trigger, disconnector, and bolt carrier -- were unacceptable in semiautomatic rifles. Colt apparently had a large inventory of FA bolt carriers, and it was able to get the ATF to reconsider and allow them to be used in semi guns.

 

[kBob]

AexanderA,

I thought even the earliest SP1s had the bottom of the bolt carrier releived so it would not trip an auto disconector if it were installed after correctly drilling the lower for its pin.

One of the accessories for legal and taxed transformation of an AR to select fire in the early days was a screw in spacer to make that bit of the bottom of the carrier the correct length again.

I believe that long before the ruling on M16parts that colt began to mill out the lower in such a way as to make auto disconector installation more difficult as well and to prevent the use of the drop in style auto disconector that required no mod to the original style lower. That drop in was popular as originally it was the registered and taxed part and you could move it from gun to gun! Ah, those wild and wooly times!

I think it was when folks like Old Sarge started selling AR kits and lowers that eyebrows went up on parts configuration. Besides the instant auto sear mentioned above.....which come to think of it usually did require a select fire selector as folks were simply wielding up the slot of the lower leg of the auto disconector by then.....there was also this little flat spring steel thingy with a slot and another bit of steel that made an AR15 with an M16A1 hammer into a full auto only and again at the time the part was the serial numbered registered and taxed bit.

Things were always interesting before the Firearms Owners Protection Act killed the fun.

Currently I am looking for a "rounded" AR hammer for a rifle I like to try to use a carrier replacement style .22 adaptor in that doesn't work well. I am loath to pay for one made that way and bummed about having to grind off the hook on a mil surp one. Ones I have found so far have shipping almost as high as the part is actually worth....and they want twice or three times that. Oh, for the days of shoe boxes full of $3 M16 hammers at guns shows and no worries!

BTW while in the service I really thought 3/4 of M16A1s should have been blocked to semi and safe only and only the fireteam auto rifle guy have a select fire rifle. Besides the control issue of firing too much ammo un aimed too fast (2.3 seconds and your 30 rounder is empty when you need it most) . There was the issue of troops removing the auto disconnector for cleaning (not actually authorized at the time, but insisted on by some NCOs) and re- installing them improperly. This turned the guns into an odd sort of select fire weapon-----semi and straight pull, as the hammer when on auto followed the Bolt carrier and the locking system of the bolt's sort of safety sytem slowed the hammer enough that it usually did not set off the next cartridge. A trooper had to jerk back the charging handle and eject the unfired round to recock.....and then just got one more round .....repeatedly as panic over ruled the brain that was shouting "put it back on semi you moron!"

-kBob

 

[AlexanderA]

I thought even the earliest SP1s had the bottom of the bolt carrier relieved so it would not trip an auto disconector if it were installed after correctly drilling the lower for its pin.

There are several different types of bolt carriers. What you are describing is the "semiautomatic" bolt carrier. My two pre-1970 SP1's have that type of carrier. What I was referring to in my post was an additional modification made by Colt, putting a bevel on the underside of the carrier (exposing the firing pin) so that the notched hammer would catch on the firing pin collar if there was hammer follow-down. This required a small-collar firing pin; otherwise the hammer would catch on the firing pin even if there wasn't hammer follow-down. For some reason this modification didn't last too long before Colt dropped it (apparently with the blessing of ATF).

One of the accessories for legal and taxed transformation of an AR to select fire in the early days was a screw in spacer to make that bit of the bottom of the carrier the correct length again.

Yes, that was the "poor man's solution" rather than buying an FA bolt carrier. These were usually used with drop-in auto sears. The idea was that the gun could be returned to original condition. I seriously doubt that most people who did this in those days were going through the Form 1 formalities. If you were going to Form1 a gun, you'd make a proper registered receiver. DIASes were basically an illegal workaround (sold cheaply through Shotgun News). They only became legit later, when serial numbered and registered.

I believe that long before the ruling on M16parts that colt began to mill out the lower in such a way as to make auto disconnector installation more difficult as well and to prevent the use of the drop in style auto disconnector that required no mod to the original style lower. That drop in was popular as originally it was the registered and taxed part and you could move it from gun to gun! Ah, those wild and wooly times!

The semi Colts were always milled so that the fire control cavity was narrower in back, so that the "official" auto sear wouldn't fit. (I believe that was part of the basis for their original approval by the ATF.) Some time in the 1970's, Colt began to put a hard-to-remove hardened steel block in that area, so that a drop-in auto sear wouldn't fit either. But by that time, aftermarket lower receivers were available, so people simply used those with DIASes instead of bothering with Colts. (The hardened steel block was also eventually dropped by Colt.) It took a while for the ATF to rule that a DIAS, in and of itself, was a machine gun. That put a stop to the anonymous Shotgun News sales. There was a grace period in which people could serialize and register their existing DIASes. Registered DIASes did not become the popular phenomenon that you describe until shortly before the 1986 Hughes cutoff. (There were thousands of them being made as of May 19, 1986. ATF disallowed many registrations on the ground that they were incomplete on that date.)

Besides the instant auto sear mentioned above.....which come to think of it usually did require a select fire selector as folks were simply wielding up the slot of the lower leg of the auto disconector by then.....there was also this little flat spring steel thingy with a slot and another bit of steel that made an AR15 with an M16A1 hammer into a full auto only and again at the time the part was the serial numbered registered and taxed bit.

Yes, that's what's known as a "Lightning Link." Those are a little trickier to get to work right than a DIAS. The ironic thing is that registered DIASes or LL's are as valuable today as some registered receivers. Odd, since they started out as quasi-illegal workarounds.

 

[easy]

More than one, all of the above.

 

[Varminterror]

I thought I could reduce the number of AR’s I owned... it’s not often I’m so naive...

 

[hdwhit]

Do you own an AR-15? If so, what is it's primary use to you?

People posting these sorts of polls need to remember to add an "other" category. Yes, I own two AR-15s. I am waiting for my oldest to have a place where he can properly secure it and I will give it to him. I am waiting for my youngest to get old enough to legally own it.

 

[CajunBass]

I'm a revolver guy basically, but I finally broke down a bought an AR-15 about a month ago. I don't have much use for a rifle at all, but it was there, and the price seemed reasonable. I've got three thirty round magazines for it, and a small stack of ammo. I have never fired it. I suppose I bought it mostly because it was there (the shop had a stack of them on a pallet) and to add one more to the total for the anti's to see.

It's a Smith & Wesson M&P-15?, Anyway, it seems to be a nice rifle.



I have fired one, well, it was a full auto version that I got a free rental at my range for on my birthday a few years ago. I fired 60 rounds, thought it was fun. It didn't take long to figure out how to squeeze off two and three round bursts. I don't even know what brand it was.

 

[MachIVshooter]

You could probably call me a fan



Not shown are the 10mm magnum and the 1/2 scale

 

[SamT1]

People posting these sorts of polls need to remember to add an "other" category. Yes, I own two AR-15s. I am waiting for my oldest to have a place where he can properly secure it and I will give it to him. I am waiting for my youngest to get old enough to legally own it.

In Texas you can give a baby an AR15. He can’t buy it from a shop but can own it if dad give it to him.

 

[entropy]

Yes, yes, and Texas retains the right to secede from the Union, too. Pull the other one. Federal Law states that kid can't own a long gun until they are 18. They might be able to possess it while hunting, but they will not be the legal owner until they are 18. I 'owned' a .30-06 at 14, and a .357 Mag. at 15, but my Dad owned them as far as the law is concerned until I turned 18.

 

[SamT1]

Yes, yes, and Texas retains the right to secede from the Union, too. Pull the other one. Federal Law states that kid can't own a long gun until they are 18. They might be able to possess it while hunting, but they will not be the legal owner until they are 18. I 'owned' a .30-06 at 14, and a .357 Mag. at 15, but my Dad owned them as far as the law is concerned until I turned 18.

Your wrong. Can’t buy from a FFL. But dad can give them or they can buy a long gun in a private sale. Federal law not just Texas.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Yes, yes, and Texas retains the right to secede from the Union, too. Pull the other one. Federal Law states that kid can't own a long gun until they are 18. They might be able to possess it while hunting, but they will not be the legal owner until they are 18. I 'owned' a .30-06 at 14, and a .357 Mag. at 15, but my Dad owned them as far as the law is concerned until I turned 18.

Federal law sets no minimum age for possession or private party transfer of long guns. None of us would do it, but technically it would be legal to sell a rifle or shotgun to a kindergartner. Doesn't mean you'd be immune from civil action in the event of property damage or injury resulting from the predictable misuse of a firearm by a young child, though.

The special exemptions for "legitimate purposes" such as hunting or competitive shooting are in regards to handguns being possessed by minors.

 

[entropy]

Hence many States laws allowing prosecution of adults who leave guns accessible to minors that misuse them. Just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do sometimes.

Your wrong.

Yes, I am, in part. There are some jurisdictions that do forbid it, however. I did answer so in part to dispel the myth someTexans perpetuate that Texas is a separate country. And yes, I lived there for several years, and my Dad had lived there for the last 20 or so.

Overall, I will say the gun laws there are pretty good.

 

[Old Dog]

You could probably call me a fan

View attachment 786260

Not shown are the 10mm magnum and the 1/2 scale

Ah, a beginner ... Just kidding, nice collection!

 

[Charlie98]

The semiautomatic AR-15 was approved for commercial sale, I believe, in 1964. This was before the "readily restored" language was added to the NFA definition of a machine gun by the GCA of 1968. If the NFA was worded in 1964 the way it is today, I don't believe the AR-15 would have been approved. (It can be converted to fully automatic by some fairly minor machining operations. Certainly less than "8 hours in a fully equipped machine shop" as stated in at least one court case.) .

What's sad is, in about 30 seconds you can render a full-auto M14 to semi-auto status, but because of the 'once a machine gun, always a machine gun' rule, we can't do that.

What you posted is the history of the AR-15/M16; it is legal because the BATF(E) said so in much the same manner as the 'once a machine gun' rule I quoted above. Anyone can modify a legally built and obtained firearm into something it shouldn't be, it is a federal offense and that is the risk you take... AR or not. But you are right... it certainly is interesting.

 

[AlexanderA]

What you posted is the history of the AR-15/M16; it is legal because the BATF(E) said so in much the same manner as the 'once a machine gun' rule I quoted above.

Yes, and the ATF has ruled -- twice -- that bump-fire stocks are not machine guns. Now the ATF is being forced (by political orders from above) to reverse that position.

With a change of administration, the same thing could happen with the legality of AR-15's. The ATF could be forced to go back and rescind the original approval of the design, based on the current wording of the NFA. Of course, that would overturn 50+ years of precedent, but theoretically it could be done and Congress would have nothing to do with it. That would leave the fate of millions of legally-obtained AR's in limbo.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Ah, a beginner ... Just kidding, nice collection!

Right? Lol. I know there are guys who have 30+, but aside from an A1 clone, I can't think of another configuration I need to add. Half of those I barely use as it is.

 

[Sistema1927]

AR's are the "Lego blocks" of the rifle world. Build it the way you like, and if you don't like the resulting configuration then change it.

That slow-mo video was interesting. Neat to see the bolt bounce at the end of the cycle.