AR 15 quandry

[rageofangels]

Cross posted from AR15.com for more advice...

As I understand it, every rifle shooter eventually makes his or her way into picking up an AR which usually leads in to picking up several before all is said and done. I am slowly becoming a rifle shooter as it is something new and when the zombies come, I'll need more than a handgun and a crow bar.

However, because they are so many manufacturers and configurations, when it comes to letters and numbers I am becoming very confused. In addition to reading that some ARs are taking advantage of a "newer" gas piston system.

My questions are basically rehashed several times over in asking what most of you would recommend when a first-time AR buyer should look for when purchasing an AR. My only rifle experience is really shooting my SKS and popping off a few 7.62 x 51 rounds from my good friend's Remmy 700.

For name brands I am not completely dead set on anything. It seems that each manufacturer has several dedicated fans in each of their camps. Of course, several will recommend Bushmaster (After all, it's logo is brandished at the top of the page!) others prefer Stag. Armalite is mentioned but only seldom in my experience. I've heard people rail Rock River Arms for being complete junk while I've also heard several sing their praise. I've read MOSTLY good things about DPMS, but their catalogue is a bit confusing as it seems to cater to LE and I am definately not one of those gents.

Barrel length is a tough one too. Short barreled (16") would be practical for my current urban lifestyle, but 18" certainly seems managable. The only thing I think I do not want is a floating barrel ar. I will not be doing any varminter shooting.

I would like to ad some sort of optics, but that is a discussion for another day.

I know that a general good rule for learning is reading and I have been doing that on this forum scouring for information. Anything you can help me add to my knowledge is more than appreciated.

As an addendum...

This gentleman has Stag uppers and lowers sold for what seems to be a pretty good price @ http://www.title2.com/Stagarms.htm . I am still checking around but they have have complete lowers with 6 position stock for $225 and complete uppers in 16" A2 no-ban style for $485.

If nothing else, the lower seems like a good price. I'd have to tag on another 20 dollars for an FFL transfer (shipping is free). I need to research uppers a bit more. As previously mentioned in the thread, the idea of fragmentation seems to be optimum @ 18"-20." I don't think the aforementioned upper has a bayonet lug, and just in case I have something silly to put on it, I wouldn't mind having it.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Zak Smith]

Simple solution:

Get a 16" barrel,
flat-top ("A3" or "A4") receiver,
mid-length gas system and handguards,
regular A2 front sight tower if you'll ever want to use iron sights
standard A2 flash hider

A free-floated handguard is a good idea, independent of varmint shooting, but you do not need one.

Go from there.

You can get this configuration from almost all of the major AR makers.

 

[rageofangels]

Is this the same Zak on the livejournal forum "guns" ?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Zak_Smith gave pretty much the same advice I would have given you. I think that is an excellent AR to do just about anything and very handy for everyone from novices to experts.

The only thing I would add is concentrate less on the manufacturer and more on the dealer. The dealer is who you will be dealing with if something goes wrong and a reputable dealer who stands behind his product (and knows how to assemble/check it) is a better guarantee than any specific manufacturer since even the best manufacturers put out the occasional lemon.

 

[GRIFFIN1]

I agree with Zak, but I would also get a chrome lined barrel. Since most people end up putting some sort optics on their rifle, you might want to skip the carry handle and go straight for a flip up rear sight.

http://www.eaglefirearms.net/ seems to be a popular place to shop. I've never bought anything from them, but I'll probably buy an upper from them just as soon as I can decide what kind of rifle I want to build. Rock River Arms (RRA) and Stag are the brands I would look at on the eaglefirearms web site.

 

[Zak Smith]

Chrome lined barrel not necessary unless you take the rifle swimming regularly and cannot clean it for extended periods.

 

[GRIFFIN1]

Everyone knows that zombies don't like water, so you will probably find yourself shooting from water eventually.

The way I look at it, chrome lined barrels are usually about a $40 upgrade. They are supposed to increase the life of the barrel, and make the gun easier to clean. It's just my opinion, but I think chrome lined barrels are worth it. The downside to chrome lined barrels is that they are supposed to be slightly less accurate than standard barrels.

 

[rageofangels]

I guess I could always eventually get both!

 

[ugaarguy]

Ok, you're lookin at $715 to put a rifle together. For $775 you can get a complete DPMS flat top carbine with carrying handle, case, sling, cleaning kit, and two 30rd. mags; http://www.rguns.net/009_42.html. RGuns also has the M4 profile barrel if you prefer that. I'm tryin to find out what the DPMS warranty is.

 

[Gary G23]

If I were you I would get the Stag lower and upper from Title II. They are great to deal with and you can't go wrong with Stag either.

 

[Onmilo]

If you do most of your shooting at 300 meters or less and don't need sub minute of angle accuracy then go ahead and get a chrome lined barrel.

All of the chrome lined barrels I have any experience with will hold minute of angle to 300 and they will hold that level of accuracy for a long, long time.

I personally think a longer barrel is a bit better than a short barrel both in shootability and groupability.
This theory applies even more so if a chrome lined bore is selected.

Marines may be on to something when they stayed with the standard 20" barrel and a flat top receiver, M16A4.

Most folks who choose a dot optic or short scope use a fold down receiver sight.
Fold down front sights are becoming extremely popular too because they don't show up in the scope under low power magnification.

All top brand manufacturers are good.
People complain when they try to assemble something that was manufactured to extremely tight tolerance with simple garage workshop hand tools and end up screwing something up.
Everything is the manufacturers fault don't you know.

 

[chakup]

I'll throw a wrench in here- eventually you'll get a taste of class III. My suggestion- get your lower, From 1 SBR it. and save yourself the money and just order a short upper once it's approved.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Listen to Zak, his AR15-fu is strong.

Brands I would consider:

1. Colt
2. Rock River Arms
3. Bushmaster
4. Stag Arms

What is your intended use for the rifle? ARs come in many varieties from SBRed carbines to 24" varmint rifles. One appealing thing about them is that you can go from one to the other, and then back, merely by switching uppers.

My AR-15 is my primary SHTF gun. It's a Colt AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine with a 16" chrome-lined heavy barrel (HBAR), telestock, and flattop upper. If I was mainly interested in a target or hunting rifle I'd choose a different configuration with a longer barrel.

FWIW, I'm considering getting the HBAR turned down and shaving ~1 lb. of the rifle's weight. That or splurging and rebarreling it with the 1:7 lightweight barrel made for the Colt AR-15A2 Gov't Carbine. If I was buying a rifle now, I'd go with a lightweight barrel, e.g., a Bushmaster Superlight or the Colt GC. They handle better and fit more with the AR-15 as a light carbine motif that appeals to me. YMMV.

I've also owned a Bushmaster Dissipator. IMO they are too heavy with the HBAR, but you can get them with an M-4 barrel profile.

Note that Rock River Arms' "R-4" barrel profile is HBAR under the handguards.

IMO, for most users a chrome lined barrel is worth it, especially if you'll be shooting a lot. While in a target rifle a chromed bore may not give quite as good accuracy as a plain chrome-moly barrel, most people won't notice the difference. The chrome plating cleans up a bit easier and extends barrel life, especially if you're into rapid fire and heating up the barrel.

The one RRA carbine I've handled had an outstanding trigger, much better than my Colt's. Fit and finish was on par with the Colt.

 

[rageofangels]

I would love to have an SBR but I'll probably move 2 or 3 more times in the next few years because of school and I don't want to keep paying the transfer fees to renew it. Also, it's illegal to take class III across state lines isn't it? I constantly travel tri-state.

 

[BozemanMT]

Listen to the Zak man, he knows what he's talking about.
And yes, you will end up with more than one, very soon probably
So really, getting something basic while you learn what you want and don't want out of an AR isn't really going to cost that much.
I have a couple RRA's, no issues, they all work fine. I like the rifle length gas system better than the mid-length (This is all Zak's fault BTW, I knew nothing about AR's before meeting him, don't let him show you his beauties ). But I like the shorter barrel, so I had some custom built. However, I just got a cheapie truck gun, Cav Arms lower, Colt A3 upper with a carry handle. Works super and not too heavy. So, anything can be done.
Just go buy a complete one from anyone.
oh, and even with all the noise, wander around AR15.com, there is a lot of knowledge on there.
But, first step, is to go buy one. Heck, great thing about AR's is if you don't like the configuration, you sell your upper and get another one.

 

[modifiedbrowning]

Listen to Zak.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Chrome. It's worth the extra $30.

 

[wdlsguy]

I would love to have an SBR but I'll probably move 2 or 3 more times in the next few years because of school and I don't want to keep paying the transfer fees to renew it.

You only need to pay the $200 tax once and then you own it. When you move you file a Form 5320.20, checking No in box 2.

Also, it's illegal to take class III across state lines isn't it? I constantly travel tri-state.

If you're referring to Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana, all are SBR-friendly. You can file Form 5320.20's good from January 1 through December 31 for addresses in each state if you know where you'll be traveling to.

 

[rageofangels]

That is pleasant news! I was under the assumption that you had to pay at least another $50 dollars to transfer it from state to state when and if you moved. The SBR idea is fantastic after reading about several people taking the plunge on Ar15.com .

 

[Euclidean]

Simple solution:

Get a 16" barrel,
flat-top ("A3" or "A4") receiver,
mid-length gas system and handguards,
regular A2 front sight tower if you'll ever want to use iron sights
standard A2 flash hider

A free-floated handguard is a good idea, independent of varmint shooting, but you do not need one.

Go from there.

You can get this configuration from almost all of the major AR makers.

This is exactly what I did and I haven't been sorry. Mine's a frankengun built at the lowest possible price without sacrificing quality: a Stag Upper on a DPMS lower with a couple of Bushmater parts tossed in.

I've just been using my BUIS, I'll add an optic another day (They cost $$$)

 

[michael_aos]

My feeling is longer gas-systems are better. Either a 16" bbl with a mid-length or 18"-20" bbl with a rifle-length.

The fixed A2 front-sight / gas-block is annoying when trying to use my Leupold 1.5-5x20mm scope. It doesn't bother me with a 3-9x40mm PR scope though.

I started with an Armalite M15A4 -- and did a bunch of stuff to it.
Then I bought an AR-10 -- and did a bunch of stuff to it.
Then an Olympic K9GL -- and did a bunch of stuff to it.

My latest is a Sabre Defence version of a Cavalry Arms Trooper. I went this route specifically because I didn't want to do a bunch of stuff to it. If I had it to do over again, I'd select the Scout instead.

 

[rageofangels]

I know this is a totally lame question but how can I tell the gas lengths on the receivers if it is a mid sized or carbine? Is the "m4 receiver" the only one that is carbine length? Thanks.

 

[rero360]

would the standard A2 fixed front sight interfere with an ACOG 4X32 mounted on a flat top? the extent of my M16 experience is all purely military, 6 years of 11B, but nothing outside of that.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

How can I tell the gas lengths on the receivers if it is a mid sized or carbine?

The gas tube on a carbine length gas system is a little over 7" long. The gas tube on a midlength gas system is a little over 9" long. The gas tube on a rifle length gas system is a little over 12" long.

The gas system depends only on the barrel and the gas tube. You can change gas systems on the same upper receiver by swapping those parts.

would the standard A2 fixed front sight interfere with an ACOG 4X32 mounted on a flat top?

You may see a faint shadow depending on how close the front sight base is to the objective lens of the ACOG (the closer, the less shadow). Most people do not notice it as usually, the front sight base is outside the focal length of the scope.

 

[colt.45]

heres my view. colt and arma-light are the originals. they did it first. now bushmaster's quality control is very good and they are very simular to colt and stag: in that they all mostly make stock guns with the original blue prints, and a few target/varmint models. then there are the companies like rock river make verry cool tactical and accurate guns. and other brands. the olympic arms plinker is a good gun for the money(or so i hear) but i would feel better with a colt. colt is my name and i grew up witha colt (without so much as a hicup from it) so i will recomend them. but a simular brand like bushmaster is good for me too. whatever brand you chose you wont be dissapointed.