AR build and beating the odds.

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So would you say that LMT, Bravo Co and Colt are all equal in quality to the extent that I won't notice a difference?
They're made to military spec. They're different manufacturers, but the part ius made the way it is supposed to be made. Other makers don't MPI and shot peen it, because that is not something you can see, adds a small chance of failure into the equation, and costs a decent chunk of change. This enables them to sell the part cheaper and have less rejects, which means more sales and more $$$.

To be fair, you can have a non-MPI'ed, non shot-peened bolt and have it run like a top and outlive you. The chances of this happening go up and up the less and less you shoot your rifle, since if the part is fine it will be fine regardless, and if the part has a hidden flaw it will still be fine if it is not stressed (read: not shot much). Inversely, the chances of this happening go down as you shoot more, since a part that has a hidden flaw is more likely to fail the more often you shoot it.
Can anyone describe the shot peen, MPI and heat treating process, including it's affects (why it's done), how it's done and what will happen if it's not done?
MPI is Magnetic Particle Inspection. basically, the bolt is examined for hidden microscopic flaws. If the bolt has these flaws, it is likely to fail unacceptably early in its service life. MPI'ing the bolt weeds out bolts that are more likely to fail. This is a Good Thing. Failing to MPI the bolt will not matter one bit if the bolt is good, but might matter if it is not.

Heat treating is just a metal-working technique that ensure that the metal has the right strength and flexibility. Get it wrong and the metal will be either too hard/brittle or too soft/pliable.

Shot-peening is a technique that increases the strength of the metal in the bolt. Basically it is like sand or bead blasting.

Mike
 
If you quoted the rest of my list, you'll see that I specifically said all of those can affect reliability.
Good, but you didn't mention anything else, just that they could fail. That doesn't help me fix the problem before it happens.

I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of people come on here and say, "What's a good first AR?" and there are about 50 replies saying "Don't waste your money on a factory assembled gun, build your own." When, in fact, a newbie who has never even field stripped an AR, and doesn't even know what all the parts do, is vulnerable to a lot of pitfalls.
Well, I didn't say that and had good luck with my first kit.

Same goes for carrier keys. They best carrier in the world isn't worth squat if the keys aren't staked properly and they end up backing out.
Crappy factory ammo or crappy reloads can wreak havoc on even the best guns. They'll short stroke, misfeed, fail to go into battery, blow primers, blow cases...
Good info.

As for what's what, DO SOME RESEARCH. Stop being lazy. Do you think you're the first guy to ever build an AR-15? I'd bet that almost every question you might have has been answered. Use Google and search THR and Arfcom. The Arfcom tech forums are a wealth of info.
Um, I am doing research and I have read and read and read and am finally getting some awesome answers (thanks a ton Zak, Coronach, Jeff, Gary and everyone else :D). If answering my questions is too much or a waste of time, don't bother. There are plenty of other people willing to spread knowledge. If I was asking questions that had a repeated answer, the 3 moderators would have pointed me to it and told me to shaddap.

On another note:
The kits I have been buying come from m-aparts.com who use LMT uppers and barrels from Wilson iirc. From the inspection tag that comes on them I get the feeling they test fire them with a test bolt and m-aparts.com gets their bolts from somewhere else. I'll call them and ask, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were not shot peened, MPI'ed and possibly not heat treated. I'm sure they are willing to tell me what all they do in the production process.

Is there a way to tell, by inspection rather than what they tell me, if a BCG has been MPI'ed, shot peened and heat treated?
 
M-A Parts is an offshoot of the old Nesard company (along with Model 1 Sales). Nesard was notorious for a fairly mixed bag of parts in its ARs and I would be surprised to hear that either Model 1 or M-A has changed the business model dramatically.

You might clarify with M-A whether they sell LMT uppers or whether they sell uppers "made by the same forge that makes LMT uppers so they are basically the same thing." A lot of the parts houses/gun shows retailers like to make this claim; but the fact is that all those parts that don't meet the LMT spec have to go somewhere. A Lincoln Towncar and a Ford Focus are both made by Ford; but they aren't the same car.
 
Receiver extensions: Get a milspec tube, not a commercial tube.

Many companies use commercial spec tubes and they work just fine. I'd like to know why a well made commercial tube would be any less reliable than a mil-spec tube. I just don't see that as a reliability issue at all. I'd like to see any data that proves that one is more reliable than the other. Milspec might be stronger but I don't think I've ever heard of a commercial one breaking.

Granted, commercial tubes are cheaper to make so you might see a greater amount of crappy quality commercial tubes when compared to milspec ones on the market. Also, if there's a nice stock you might want in the future it may not always be made in both sizes, so it is something to pay attention to. If it were my choice, I would get the milspec, but I think most commercial ones work fine too.

I think the main reason that people have more problems with builds is that they are using cheaply made out of spec parts from some website somewhere so they can save a few bucks. If I see what appears to be a good deal and I don't know who made it, I probably don't want it. Don't listen to the snobs that say you need to spend thousands to get anything worth having.
 
The kits I have been buying come from m-aparts.com who use LMT uppers and barrels from Wilson iirc.
Something I've noticed is that a lot of people sell "the same part as ..." and often thats seems questionable. For instance I have a dealer account with LMT. They don't list stripped upper receivers for sale. Certainly this place could be selling them, maybe they worked a deal. I think its more likely they're blowing smoke though. Ymmv.
 
Granted, commercial tubes are cheaper to make so you might see a greater amount of crappy quality commercial tubes when compared to milspec ones on the market.

why's that?
 
Certainly this place could be selling them, maybe they worked a deal. I think its more likely they're blowing smoke though.
I just got off the phone with them. They said they get their barreled uppers from LMT and their BCG's from a current military contractor, but couldn't say who. I should have asked them how much assembly they do on the uppers, if they come fully assembled and headspaced or if they assemble them themselves. I think I'll send them an email and see what they say.
 
You might also ask them if their uppers are produced to the same specifications as LMT's own uppers - and if not where those specifications differ.

Same question for their BCGs - do they meet the military spec and if not, where do they differ?

The old "We buy from the same contractor who produces BCGs for Delta" line is one of the oldest AR marketing tricks in the book. It is probably true - they just don't mention that they buy to a totally different spec or that they are buying rejects from that particular contract. Whether M-A does this I couldn't say; but they certainly wouldn't be the first or last to use that line.

And for what it is worth, most of the Nesard rifles I built (despite total ignorance, lack of proper tools and the parts) worked just fine for their intended market - recreational shooters who fired a few hundred rounds a year.
 
I built one AR. All parts were milspec. All the basic parts (lower, upper, FCG, barrel, stock) are good quality but not top of the line. It functions fine. Now I am making minor tweaks (replaced stock - from A2 to collapsible; trigger group - added Armalite tactical, front sight post - NM, nicer bolt catch).

I think the design is meant to be slapped together from milspec parts and work.

My $.02
 
Quote:
Granted, commercial tubes are cheaper to make so you might see a greater amount of crappy quality commercial tubes when compared to milspec ones on the market.
why's that?

why's that?

There is less machining required to make a commercial one.
 
can you be a little more specific? other than a few thousands of an inch different diameter, what is machined differently between the two tubes?
 
Well I bought a kit from del-ton.com. Their wait was like 3 weeks when I made my first rifle, but it's currently around 1 week wait. I think I'll email them and ask where they get their parts from.
 
can you be a little more specific? other than a few thousands of an inch different diameter, what is machined differently between the two tubes?

If you look at the threading that is on most of the milspecs, the threads are greater in diameter than the tube itself. On commercial tubes, the threads are flush. It's easier to manufacture them using the commercial style.
 
"can you be a little more specific? other than a few thousands of an inch different diameter, what is machined differently between the two tubes?"

They are made by two totally different methods. The commercial tube is an extrusion. The mil-spec tube is machined from a solid block of aluminum.
 
Gary just explained it the right way for me. Thanks! Extrusion is the word I should have been looking for.
 
My thought is just be sure that the parts are in spec is all. Most AR parts are made by one company anyways and sold under other names. You get into lower cost parts a lot of the time the specs for the things are not as tight as on the more costly parts. If the parts are in spec you should be able to put a gun together just as good as factory. Now the market is flooded with who knows what parts with who knows how they are speced out too.
 
How about upper and lower receivers? Big difference in quality there or are they all made close enough to spec that it isn't as big of an issue as the BCG or other critical parts?
 
Regarding buffer tubes....

I'm probably going to switch an A2 stock to a collapsible, which means going to a carbine tube, spring and buffer. Tell me what I need to know about choosing a buffer. Which weight? There was an earlier post that made it sound like he goes to the range and does it by trial and error. I don't want to go out and buy one of every buffer; tell me what I need to know to pick the right one (hopefully) the first time. And then, know that it is working right or wrong when I test it (ie. what should I be looking for). This is for a stock Bushmaster post-ban shorty carbine.

On a related note, can someone explain why we have different weights and how they effect the cycle, so that I understand what is going on?

This thread has been quite interesting, and good to hear from folks other than the "fanboys"!

Thanks!
:cool:
 
As long as the holes for the pins are in the right place and the magwell isn't out of spec, you can build a good AR on anyone's lower. It's the upper receiver assembly that runs the gun.

With uppers you have to make sure that the hole for the gas tube is in the right place. If it's a flattop upper you need to make sure that it actually has an inspec picatinney rail. Some people like M4 cuts in the upper but I've never seen the need for them in a semi auto.

With barrels you need to make sure that the front sight/gas block is attached properly with taper pins. You don't need a chrome lined bore unless you intend to expose the weapon to military type abuse. (all of my ARs have chrome lined bores even though I'm no longer an Infantryman) I would recommend a chrome lined chamber though.

Jeff
 
Tell me what I need to know about choosing a buffer.

Semi auto only? If so a standard buffer is all you need. I know that Colt ships the R6920 with an "H" buffer, mine came with one way back in 1999. But they do that simply for Colt's convenience. It's not necessary.

What the heavier buffers do is slow the action down enough to stop bolt bounce in full auto. There are a lot of shooters spending a lot of money on "reliability" parts for their carbines that are only necessary if you shoot full auto.

Now if you buy a used carbine or barrel that some AR butcher has messed with the gas port on all bets are off. But with a 16" barrel firing semi auto, "H" buffers are not necessary.

Jeff
 
Jeff, thanks so much for the reply! A couple more questions related to your response:

1) Is the "standard buffer" the same one that is (most likely) in my A2 stock? Or, are we talking about a standard carbine buffer?

2) I'm not into NFA at this time, but I'm interested to know just what "bolt bounce" is and how it plays in the firing cycle.

Thank you again!
 
TexasShooter59,

A standard carbine buffer is what you need. The rifle buffer is too long to fit in the carbine buffer tube and allow the bolt to cycle.

Jeff
 
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