AR for HD

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

smoothdraw

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
195
Location
Atlanta
I'm planning to integrate my AR carbine and later shotgun in my HD arsenal. I'm going to get advanced M4 training from a local training school here in our place in few weeks time.

I understand that when we talk about AR we have to deal with terminal ballistics. My question to all who are already using their AR as their main HD tool, what barrel, twist, and ammo you are using? I have a 14.5" barrel 1/7 twist. Will you use a 55gr FMJ or 77gr JHP's? Currently i'm planning 55gr FMJ hoping to be able to hit anywhere within my property above 2500 ft/s. And couple my mag with some M855 wall penetrator round. I will use 20 rounders PMAGs. Then maybe mount a G2 light.

Any suggestions?

I'm also thinking to invest in a SBR later but the terminal ballistics of .223/5.56 in SBR is threwing me off. But somehow I know that if i have to room to room clear my property, a SBR is more manueverable than a M4. Maybe for SBR, a Krinkov 7.62x54 is better so as to forget the terminal ballistics of .223 and just depend on the bigger holes that an AK bullet but then wall penetration will now be a bigger issue. Stick with AR and fast .223 bullet yeah???

No shotgun or pistol discussion pls. The objective is to learn from people who are already using AR as their main home defense tool.
 
Last edited:
The ball ammo would probably break up, but you'll get much better performance from a commercial SP round. Brassfetcher has done testing on various loads.
 
But somehow I know that if i have to room to room clear my property, a SBR is more manueverable than a M4.
Click to expand...

The training you acquire will flesh that out. It will also tweak much of your gear issues. You might also look into suppressors if you do go with the SBR. I think they are a superb match.

As far as ammo goes, I like it heavy.
 
The training you acquire will flesh that out. It will also tweak much of your gear issues. You might also look into suppressors if you do go with the SBR. I think they are a superb match.
Click to expand...

Have to echo that. I use an SBR for HD as well, and without a suppressor they can be brutal to fire in close quarters. You wouldn't think there would be that much difference between an 11" and 16" barrel, but I was shocked.

At the VERY least look into something like the Noveske Krink FH to push the blast forward of the shooter. Helps a little.

I'm also thinking to invest in a SBR later but the terminal ballistics of .223/5.56 in SBR is threwing me off.
Click to expand...

With proper ammo that won't be an issue for normal self defense shooting distances.

Ammo, 75gr Hornady TAP is all I would even consider. Well, Mk262Mod0 if I could get it but.....close enough.

If you stick with ball ammo you need to be concerned about that "magic" fragmentation velocity 2500 or whatever. Best choice is to use an ammo type that doesn't depend on that anyway.
 
Thanks all. I have Smith Vortex flash hider that i think also blast forward the flash but maybe not as good as the noveske Pig Krinch.

11" brutal as in very loud??? So you guys think that 16" is okay for room to room clearing and not much help to invest in a SBR? And if to go with SBR have to had a suppressor right? Can i get SBR and Suppressor together and only apply for 1 ATFE stamp?

Okay i will get some 75 Hornady Taps and see how it performs with my rifle. Mk262Mod0 is the Black Hills Ammunition 77gr bullet right??? I think i will be able to get some black hills. How about penetrating ammo. For example if the home invader uses wall as cover and i want to penetrate it?? What bullet can i use for my 14.5 barrel 1/7 twist? I still have some M855 green tip 62gr ammo's. Can i use those or just plink it and get a better defense penetrating load?

What is the condition of your rifle when you keep it? condition 1, 2, 3?? Are red dot scope really essential or just a nice toy?
 
smoothdraw said:
Thanks all. I have Smith Vortex flash hider that i think also blast forward the flash but maybe not as good as the noveske Pig Krinch.

11" brutal as in very loud??? So you guys think that 16" is okay for room to room clearing and not much help to invest in a SBR? And if to go with SBR have to had a suppressor right? Can i get SBR and Suppressor together and only apply for 1 ATFE stamp?

Okay i will get some 75 Hornady Taps and see how it performs with my rifle. Mk262Mod0 is the Black Hills Ammunition 77gr bullet right??? I think i will be able to get some black hills. How about penetrating ammo. For example if the home invader uses wall as cover and i want to penetrate it?? What bullet can i use for my 14.5 barrel 1/7 twist? I still have some M855 green tip 62gr ammo's. Can i use those or just plink it and get a better defense penetrating load?

What is the condition of your rifle when you keep it? condition 1, 2, 3?? Are red dot scope really essential or just a nice toy?
Click to expand...
I have three Bushmaster carbines, all mated to EOTech 552-A65 holo-sights. They will make you a far better marksman, you'll definitely hear about them from your instructor(s) at your M4 course.
One set of AA-lithium battery will provide 1100 hours of continuous run time, if you go Aimpoint optics it gets almost ridiculous(up to 50,000 hours of runtime)...They're not toys...
 
Allow the tools to develop during your training. Focus on that first. In fact, I'll recommend that you buy a copy of "The Principles Of Personal Defense" by Jeff Cooper and read it. Study is the first portion of training. Everything else will evolve properly.
 
There has been a lot of talk about penetration when using a black rifle in the home. And, there are a few things I'd like to point out.

Most of the time I enjoy what Rob Pincuss has to say, it's usually good stuff. He recently created a rough simulation of a homes' interiors, and shot them with various home defense weapons. I believe 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 12 gauge, and .223. Recorded on "Best Defense" tv show or one of the similar shows airing on Midway's "Wednesday nights at the range".

What was shown is that the .223 doesn't obliterate a house the way most folks think it does. That said, people treat the .223 as though it's an 88-Magnum (shoots through schools... and the tree outback.

Will it go through a wall or two, sure! But far scarier was the 9mm that went through about 4 walls cleanly with energy to spare.

Second, I understand the families' safety... completely.
Really I do.
But in home defense I really don't believe in choosing a 'safe weapon', as though your home is an explosively decompressing airplane.
I don't know about you, but for me I don't plan on shooting in the direction of my family, period. I would like to think you would be far better off having a family plan just like your fire plan (you have one right?!?). You teach wives and children to go to a safe room, separately or together, to stay low, etc. Your first priority should be to get in front of your family making a barrier and that critically important threat identification. Instead of choosing a weapon to compensate for lack of planning, action, and definitely muzzle discipline / shot placement.

I'm all for the .223 in a home.
I would never call you unwise or ill-planned for deciding that what's best for you and your family is a 12-ga. with bird-shot. I don't know your home layout. What I am going to say is that no matter what you shoot you still have to worry about where the shots go. So why not plan, to help take family danger out of the equation? (as much as possible with a stranger in the home)

.223 doesn't go through a brick exterior, through the 2x4's, the drywall, the television set, into a bedroom, through another drywall, and out the other side of the houses' brick and mortar. It just doesn't.

Just food for thought.
 
CoRoMo said:
Allow the tools to develop during your training. Focus on that first. In fact, I'll recommend that you buy a copy of "The Principles Of Personal Defense" by Jeff Cooper and read it. Study is the first portion of training. Everything else will evolve properly.
Click to expand...
Thanks CoRoMo, I will check that book out. Also i will have 2 M4 training 2 weeks apart. Basic then Advanced. Will receive training from a just finish tour Marine sniper. I have a basic M4gery that i built that bare bones just have iron front and rear sight. I'm just getting idea's ahead but I agree with you that i will finish the training first then learn my exact needs for the application that i will use it for. And maybe start joining those IPSC 3-gun and multi gun matches.

btw, i have 4 sided brick home for whatever it's worth and have been studying .223/5.56 terminal ballistics so i'm confident with proper ammunition my bullets will not penetrate my drywalls. I have a 14.5", I know that even a 55gr fmj will disintegrate when it hits something at 2700 ft/s upto 65ft where i shoot. My house is 65ft from corner to corner. And 75gr upto 22ft i think. And that is at 2700ft/sec. With the soem of the reading that i can get they say that 75gr Hornady TAP 5.56 disintegrates relaibly at 2300ft/sec. If that is the case then i will be able to extend my range and still get bullet fragmentation that will provide me controlled penetration.

My sidearm is 45 ACP. I think my 45 ACP will even penetrate more than the .223 But i will also start investing with some 230gr JHP Hornady TAPs and study it's balistics characteristics.

I just moved to a new home. Right now we have emergency plan with the pistol. Later we'll integrate the AR.
 
Last edited:
i have 4 sided brick home for whatever it's worth and have been studying .223/5.56 terminal ballistics so i'm confident with proper ammunition my bullets will not penetrate my drywalls.
Click to expand...
I may just not be understanding what you mean, but ANY .223/5.56 will penetrate drywall.

If it won't penetrate drywall, it sure won't penetrate human flesh.
 
Mr.Davis said:
I may just not be understanding what you mean, but ANY .223/5.56 will penetrate drywall.

If it won't penetrate drywall, it sure won't penetrate human flesh.
Click to expand...
Mr Davis

I think i said it wrong. Should penetrate the drywall but will not go through. At a very fast speed a thin copper coated lead bullet .223/5.56 will hit the relatively hard drywall, penetrate it then yaw and disintegrate upon hitting the back drywall so nothing will exit behind the drywall.

If that .223/5.56 bullet hit the drywall at a relatively lower speed at around 2000ft/sec or your bullet have heavy copper coating then that small 22 cal will go thru multiple walls without problem. That is why 9mm for HD has a lot of things going against it.

I guess the key here is the proper selection of my ammunition and how compatible it is from the length of the barrel of your AR carbine and a little bit influenced also by the twist rate.

I haven't tested this myself but this is my understanding from reading a lot of articles on terminal balistics and from the experience of these experienced people in this thread that has been using their AR for HD.

And like I've mentioned a while back, i'm going to get formal training and will try to understand things more from my training instructor.

From Bliggida,

.223 doesn't go through a brick exterior, through the 2x4's, the drywall, the television set, into a bedroom, through another drywall, and out the other side of the houses' brick and mortar. It just doesn't.

Just food for thought.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I'm also thinking to invest in a SBR later but the terminal ballistics of .223/5.56 in SBR is threwing me off.
Click to expand...
If your M4 has a 14.5" barrel then you're already contending with SBR ballistics. I take it your Vortex is permanently attached?

My AR/M4s are not for primary HD. This job is left to a Glock 19 and a Remington 870. The AR/M4s are intended for SHTF - after a natural disaster, such as a hurricane. I do keep a charged 30 rd magazine nearby in the event I need a long gun quickly. My general purpose load is 55gr FMJ. I don't bother with anything else. I keep a stock of Federal XM193 for SHTF stuff. It chrono's at 3050 fps from the 16.5" bbl of my M4s. I handload 55gr FMJBT to duplicate the velocity of the XM193. I use it for training and recreational shooting, and it will be backup ammo if I deplete my supply of XM193.

I converted an older, 20", AR15A2 to 6.8x43mm for hog hunting. I handload 110gr Hornady BTHP (with cannelure) and that is my general purpose load. If I need to defeat common barriers (automobiles, trees, CBC structures), this is rifle for the job.

Unless your home has alcoves, vestibules or narrow hallways, then your current setup will provide you plenty of CQF capability. Alcoves, vestibules and narrow halls can jam you up, but that is addressed by mounting the carbine exactly as you do a handgun in retention position - with your firing hand pressed against the side of your rib cage, elbow straight back (don't chicken wing), and top of the carbine canted away from your body (keeping your elbow straight to the rear seems to naturally cant the gun). Don't crowd corners - keep as far away from corners as the situation allows while you pie. Set your feet then lean forward from the waist as you clear corners, taking care so that your muzzle does not peek around the corner before your eye does (this is called "leading with your muzzle"). When you have leaned forward as far as your body's stability permits, stop and then take baby steps to allow the hips down to catch up, then set your feet and repeat. If you have to negotiate an area that predictably channels your movement (doorway, hallway) clear as much as possible of the other side then move quickly and decisively through and be prepared to encounter trouble from areas you were unable to see.

I don't get caught up in equipment unless it substantially improves my combat performance. IMO the time and energy invested in learning and maintaining robust fighting skills is a better investment than acquiring hardware to address perceived tactical problems.

Good luck!
 
Last edited:
The 14.5 length is good, definitly get a light, I wouldn't worry about an SBR...

A well constructed bullet like the Hornady TAP is an excellent choice. I wouldn't bother with M855.

I dropped the SG for HD once I purchased and spent some range time with the AR, so, as you can see, I favor the AR for HD.
 
I like most people do not want to hit innocent bystanders. But I don't want my adversary to have the ability to penetrate walls when I can't. For example, my home defense from the 2nd floor gives us good coverage from two different advantages to cover the stairs coming up. Now if the bad guy starts shooting though the ceiling, then I want the ability to shoot through the floor. I want an equal game or advantage. Also we will be shooting downward to cover where they would have to come up the stairs. That's my two cents.
 
XM-193 is not the only ammo for AR and not the best at that. There are Hornady TAP LEO and there are are Mk262Mod0. I guarantee the results will be different.
Click to expand...

Which is why I suggest those ammo types in post #4. The example given at BoT is M193. It's just an example.

Even TAP or the Black Hills ammo will penetrate more than one piece of sheetrock.
 
Talk to your instructor re. your questions about ammunition selection, barrel length, suppressor selection and its attendant problems, short range sighting issues, and the other things that go along with using an AR carbine at short range in close quarters. The really busy instructors out there see many many thousands of rounds fired in the course of a year, are exposed to hundreds of shooters from various walks of life with questions of their own and tales to tell, and are therefore one of the best sources of information available about what's working and what's not so good at any given time.

Put a lot into your training and you'll get a lot out of it,

lpl
 
I think i said it wrong. Should penetrate the drywall but will not go through. At a very fast speed a thin copper coated lead bullet .223/5.56 will hit the relatively hard drywall, penetrate it then yaw and disintegrate upon hitting the back drywall so nothing will exit behind the drywall.
Click to expand...
Any .223 load will penetrate one interior wall (as will anything else). Good .223 JHP's should be fragmenting by the third interior wall, though, and won't penetrate any exterior wall that will stop 9mm.
 
Just curious, who are you training with?

FWIW, when you get ready to put a light on your rifle, the SureFire G2 and a Viking Tactics mount have worked very well for me.

Just as a different approach on the ammo selection, I like the 55 grain Ballistic Tips from Georgia Arms. I'm a bit more oriented towards critter issues than most folks though.
 
As far as firing in your home you need to keep in mind 2 things : know where the other family members are, and the Marine Corps weapons safety rules.

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
2. Never point your weapon at anything you don’t intend to shoot
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire
4.Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire
5Know Your target and what lays beyond

This is a SHTF situation I use a 12 Ga with 2 rds of bird shot and 3 rds of 00 Buck. The bird shot is to try to keep from penetrating walls and I figure by the time I have 2 shots off if I still need more ammo I’m going all out. Basically it’s a personal preference thing. If you believe that you have adequate training with that weapon and feel comfortable using it in the dark than go with it. I own a black rifle, and yes in an all out firefight I would rather have this weapon (and I definitely have the training to use it.) but I believe that if someone brakes into my place I believe that a shottie is better for me, but that’s just me.

Also I recommend the TAP ammo check it out.
 
FWIW, when you get ready to put a light on your rifle, the SureFire G2 and a Viking Tactics mount have worked very well for me.
That's Al, i'll check that out. I'm originally looking for Vltor offset. Do you use pressure pad or just the normal switch of G2?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Smoothdraw, I went with just the tailcap button the G2 comes with. I don't have a railed fore-end and wanted something easy to use. I can work the light with my support hand thumb. :)

I'm also old fashioned - I use an M16A1 stock as my door kicking and body armor days are long gone. :uhoh: I hope. :p

Here's a link to the VTAC - looks like a decent deal with a G2 included for 60 bucks or so.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/prod_vtac_lightmount.html
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

W
  • Locked
Purposeful Tumble in an AR Pistol
Replies
10
Views
819
DPris
D
H
  • Locked
SBR AR in 7.62x39, estimated cost?
Replies
1
Views
1K
Bartholomew Roberts
B
S
  • Locked
Pistol carbines for HD?
Replies
21
Views
713
M2 Carbine
M
D
  • Locked
.223 ammo for home defense?
2
Replies
43
Views
2K
BADUNAME37
B
Magic_Man
  • Locked
What .223/5.56 ammo for SHTF?
Replies
13
Views
2K
Art Eatman
A
Back
Top