AR15 for High Power

[ReadyontheRight]

Which AR15 manufacturer, model and upgrades would you recommend as the best place to start for high power rifle competitions? I'll be doing local 300 Meter International matches, but I want to stay legal for CMP and NRA service rifle matches.

A few other questions:

Should I go for a 1:8 twist to start? Most A2 service rifles come with a 1:9 twist. Am I better off buying a separate lower and upper?

At Rock River Arms -- What's the difference between a ".223 Wylde" and a ".223/5.56 NATO" chamber?"

Please include online links to manufacturers or phone numbers to dealers. Especially if you know of any good deals.

 

[King]

ReadonTheRight, There may be as many answers to this question as there are people who shoot AR's.

IMHO....you need a 20" "match" grade barrel. You also need to determine if you want to shhot open sight or scoped. If open sighted, you need an A2 style AR. If scoped or for flexibility, you need an A3 style (detachable handle) and make it a flat top. You can scope one of these very nicely.

Anything better than 1:9 twist is good, IMHO.

On the .223 Wylde....I think you can only shoot .223 rounds within at so many grains. The gun may not be suitable for some of the hotter military type rounds like M195, M855, Q3191, etc.
Not for sure on this point except to say that you are more limited in what you can shoot.

You can get set up with any of the major manufacturers such as Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River, Armalite, Colt and Olypia Arms to meet any of these needs.

All of these items are subject to opinion.....i shoot Bushmaster and like the shorter 16 inch barrels personally.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Thanks King. I'll definitely be shooting an A2 with open sites.

I'm leaning towards Rock River Arms based on Steve Smith's and other's answers to a previous question on TFL and from browsing AR15.com. I'm debating whether to buy or build.

Anyone who knows of good deals out there on uppers, lowers, etc. please let me know. I've got to save up some $$ for a while (one reason I might buy in pieces), but I'm trying to learn what I can about ARs before I buy.

Thanks!

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

You really have a couple of options. You can find at Midway.com a DPMS DCM upper for about $500 and find a lower from your local dealer or funshow for about $250, $750 total for a decent service rifle gun. OR you can call John Holliger over at White Oak Precision and ask him for one of his "tuned RRA uppers" for about $600. Still find the lower locally and be in for $850, but MUCH better off. (Better yet have him build a custom upper with Krieger barrel etc. for about $900, but that is a whole different story.) John is the civilian service rifle champion and his work is HIGHLY respected in the industry. When you are having the upper sent, have him include a tuned RRA two-stage trigger and you are really set. It will take you 10 mintes to install...

I would very much recommend option 2. You have my word, if you start with option 1, you will wind up sooner than later going to option 2, and overall will have spent much more than necessary. TRUST ME, I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE. Spend a little extra to get started and it will be $$ well spent.

Back to the lower, Armalite, Bushy, DPMS or RRA. Colt has the funky pins that can be an issue when switching between uppers.

Welcome to the world of Highpower.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

the post right before me pretty much sums it up.

you need to let us know exactly what you plan on shooting with it.
if its going to be a straight highpower service rifle then the choices get a little more narrow.

you need to make the tough choice on how much you want to spend and exacty what you want to shoot.

I have two of the holliger total custom service rifle uppers and with the little ad ons they both came in a little under a grand each.
the best deal on lowers is the rock river complete lower with the two stage match trigge in it.

here is a option that a whole lot of my friends are doing to save a few bucks.
find a friendly ffl that will order for you for a low feemine either are free to $20 depending on who I go threw. than order the complete rock river cmp match upper $500 and then get the lower at a later time at $248 shipped to your ffl.
now thats going to be a little over $750 to you with a rifle ready to compete. if you want the trigger done by john you can send it to hime or have the company send it to him and when its done it gets shipped to you.

the big part you need to decide on is do you plan on shooting match ammo or plinking as they do not mix well.

the wylde chamber is NOT designed to shoot military ball ammo as it may cause over pressure. but the nato chamber will fire both but lose a little on the accurracy with match ammo.

what you need to do is call john and ask him his opinion as it will come from the person in the know. I see you are on the ar15 sight just when in the comp. part look under faQs and the such and johns email will be there listed along with other dealers.

 

[Steve Smith]

I also speak from experience and I echo Walker Texas Ranger's "follow option #2" instructions. Get John Holliger to build you a RRA upgrade upper and slap it on a RRA lower. Buy the lower with the 2 stage trigger and have John to tune it. That will cost you $25 and you can't beat the trigger for competition.


I recommend you go to www.thefiringline.com and do a search in the rifle forum for Highpower and cross reference with my name. Not that I'm the be all and end all or anything, but there's a lot of info in those threads so it'll help you a lot. Gotta run soon or I'd yap more now.


PM me if you have questions.


Oh yeah. DO NOT get a 1:9 twist. 1:7 or 1:8 is what you want. If you want to shoot Service Rifle then a 20" A2 is REQUIRED if you decide on the AR-15 platform (only logical choice these days). If you wish to shoot Match Rifle then you don't have to use a 20" A2 and would really be making a poor decision to do so. Again, read the threads at TFL (they will explain Service and Match ifle differences) and PM if you have further questions.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Thanks guys. It looks like John Holliger is up to $855 for a tuned upper, but still great advice.

Any opinions on the RRA national match upper for $600?

http://www.rockriverarms.com/national_match.htm

and the JP Enterprises trigger?

http://www.jpar15.com/fire.htm

With a RRA or John Holliger upper and a JP trigger, can I just get pretty much any lower (like DPMS for $104) or are there other considerations to look for in a good lower receiver?

Thanks for guiding us AR newbies!

 

[Steve Smith]

$885 is the price of one of John's CUSTOM uppers. They are very nice, but perhaps a bit too much for the beginner. He upgrades a RRA setup for a nominal charge, and that is what WalkerTexasRanger, JC121, and I are talking about. I have one of John's RRA upgrades and one of his true custom guns. Both shoot like a house on fire. I will have the RRA gun upgraded to "true custom" pretty soon, now that I know what I want. I know for a fact that the RRA upgrade can take you to Master class if you have it in you, so don't worry about its accuracy.

Follow JC121's advice on lowers. I couldn't have said it better myself, and that's exactly what I've been doing for all my comp guns.

Forget the JP trigger. It is fine for IPSC and that stuff, but not for HP. You should have a 2 stage trigger that has a minimum pull of 4.5 lbs. That second part is rule, not suggestion. John Holliger's work on the RRA 2 stage cannot be beaten. Please re-read my previous post (re: trigger) and also please, please search TFL as I requested, as you will find that you wil have many questions answered for you. LMK if you have further questions.

 

[USMC]

For the money Armalite!

MODEL: M15A4(T)
CALIBER: .223 REM
UPPER RECEIVER: FORGED FLATTOP
TRIGGER: NM TWO STAGE
BARREL: 24" SST T HEAVY
RIFLING TWIST: 1:8 INCH
FRONT SIGHT BASE: GAS BLOCK
MUZZLE DEVICE: NONE
OVERALL LENGTH: 42.4 INCHES
WEIGHT: 9.2 POUNDS
ACCURACY: 1" GROUPS AT 100 YARDS (1 MOA)
COMPLETE WITH: 7 ROUND MAGAZINE
OWNERS MANUAL
LIFETIME WARRANTY

Have gotten groups of a 1/4 inch.


DPMS = Daily - PMS
Highly suggest you stay away from them and ASA





USMC

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

usmc if you want to shoot that you can but not at our cmp shoots as its not legal, you can shoot it in a nra match under match rifle but you would be at a great disavantage.

the upper from rock river is $500 if you can get a dealer to get it for you. but you must buy it at a different time than the lower.

I might be buying a armalite upper in the next couple of months but not because they are the best which they aren't but we had to make a disision on our rattle battle uppers and do not want to shoot out a good rifle or use a good upper for only one match a year plus practice.

 

[USMC]

JC121,

I don't do CMP or NRA matches. To many BS rules. The prefect example is that you can't use an AR15A4t. When SHTF, what do you want? The best weapon or the weapon somebody says you can use? I have on problem with RR. They make a good product. As for Amralite, for a off the shelf weapon, it is deadly accurate.





USMC

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

well usmc I agree that if you want a rifle for alot of different courses it would be hard to have just one type of ar15 and the one you have would work great for a combat course and a few other events.

now the original post wanted to stay with something that was cmp legal so we just stayed within the bounds of what he wanted.

now my two ar15 service rifle's are nra/cmp legal which mean to look at them the only thing different from a issue 20" rifle is a stainless barrel. now I have one that is a bushmaster and the other is a rock river. now when I say the names of the company's on my rifles that means about the only thing on them from that company is the lower reciever except the rr as it has the match trigger from them and also the upper which was just a lone upper with nothing on it.
everything else is custom and hand worked and I have over $1,300 into each one and they will hold up to any ar15 service rifle in the world as a example the guy who built them now is the civilain service rifle champ for 2002 and holds the new record for score at a 300 yard course.

now as far as shtf goes I believe the best weapon to use is the one you can hit your target with if it was to be just paper or anything else.

like I said we have nra matches that you are more than welcome to use your rifle as long as you do not have a scope on it. have one sunday as a matter of fact and if you were in colo. you would be welcome to come and have fun with us. I guess you could shoot in the match on sat too and compete against the match rifle guys if you like as the only rules you would need to follow are the safety rules and doing the shots right.
its easy I can even do it 20 shots load one at a time in slow fire off hand with in 20 minutes.
rapid sitting all you do is go from standing to sitting and fire 10 shots in 60 seconds with a mag change easy
rapid prone you get 70 seconds to fire 10 shots from a stnding to prone position with a mag change and the last one 20 minutes for 20 shots loading one at a time from the prone target.

it really is very easy and the rules allow you to pretty much shoot what you want to unless you have a muzzle brack which you don't so try one out it's easy. do you think I would do it if it was hard?

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Thanks a lot guys. Rock River and John Holliger sounds like the way to go. I'll also search TFL. I was called 11.43x23 over there, but buying an AR15 wasn't on my rader screen until the last days of TFL. Steve Smith and others have given me excellent advice on TFL in the past. You're continuing the tradition here. Thanks!

 

[ShaiVong]

the upper from rock river is $500 if you can get a dealer to get it for you. but you must buy it at a different time than the lower.

Eh? How come?

Oh and whats the difference between the RR Post/Pre-ban uppers? They seem to be the same price, whats the difference?

 

[Steve Smith]

ShaiVong, the reason is because excise tax is calculated including the entire purchase, but is only applied with a lower is purchased. If you buy the lower seperately, then you only pay excise tax on the cost of the lower. Buy the upper seperately and you pay no excise tax. Buy them together and you pay excise on the whole rifle.

 

[ShaiVong]

Excise tax? What is this thing, a car?

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Oh and whats the difference between the RR Post/Pre-ban uppers?

It looks like the pre-ban uppers have flash suppressors. And I think they also have bayonet lugs. I guess the bayo lug on a "National Match" rifle is for the 1 yard stage.

 

[ShaiVong]

So let me see if I have this straight:

Post-Ban uppers are your typical AR-15's, and completely legal. Pre-Ban uppers have some goodies that 'Big Brother' thinks I'm too naughty of a boy to have, but i can buy them for 'spare parts'. I could actually make a Pre-Ban rifle out of it by using it just like a Post Ban upper, but 'The Heat' would not be pleased if they were to discover this.

Is that right? Or are the Pre-Ban's somehow unusable whole?

 

[Steve Smith]

ShaiVong, not only would the "heat" not be happy, you would be in prison, and a felon.



FWIW, excise tax is paid on ALL firearms. The AR upper is not considered a firearm when sold seperately, only the lower is. Consider it a "Good Thing" (tm) that the AR is like this...

 

[ShaiVong]

Yeah, thats what usually happens when theyre not happy. Please accept my apoligies if I sound a little embittered when it comes to the police, I had a bad experience with them not to long ago.

I don't plan on getting a preban, I dont need parts, bayonet lugs, or a criminal record. Was just confused about the differences.. Beats me why the extra stuff on a pre was worth banning.

Anyway, thanks for the info.. God I love this board.

 

[ShaiVong]

Huh. Your post stired my intrest about the tax thing.. Looking back over my slip from the gunstore where i bought my Glock 22, i got 48.66 in accessories, 2.43 tax on that.. Glock came to 549.95 paid $27 sales tax. Cant find the excise tax.. Maybe it was included in the price of the pistol. Whats the tax rate like?

 

[Victor Romen]

If I'm not mistaken the excise tax is paid when the gun in purchased from the manufacture. It is then included in the price of the gun by the dealer.