AR15 in 6.5 Grendel

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Phaedrus/69

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Does anyone here have or use an AR15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel? I've been digging around trying to find info but there doesn't seem to be a lot. For example I see uppers but so far I haven't seen any of the usual vendors selling complete 6.5 Grendel ARs. I did see that Howa is introducing the 6.5 Grendel in one of their bolt guns.

It seems like this must be an AR10, is that correct? The case size & specs seem to dictate it wouldn't work in a regular AR.

Any info would be appreciated!
 
The 6.5 Grendel is based on the x39 case, and is chambered in the ar-15.
It's a very short round, most similar to the older PPCs (it's basically a 6.5PPC). My 20" barreled rifle delivers a 123amax at about 2500fps.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is popular in the ar-10 platform, perhaps that's what you were looking at? Its based on the .308 case, but shortened to operate with vlds out of the relatively short, short action mags while not pushing vlds super deep in the case. It delivers a 123amax at 2900 from my 22" howas barrel. Book max shows 3k but from a 24" tube.

As to factory offers of the 6.5 Grendel. AA offers complete rifles, as does Radical firearms (i have their barrel and bolt in my gren build), les baer offers it as the .264lbc and its hidden under .223 rifles on their website...im sure there are others as well.

What type of AR were you interested in? A custom build maybe in order depending.
 
About a half hour after I posed the question I learned that I was mistaken; I knew the 6.5 CM was chambered in AR10's but I see that the 6.5 G has a bit smaller head diameter than I thought. I'm a little embarrassed to admit that until recently I'd never even heard of the 6.5 Grendel even though it's been around for a long time.

Right now my only AR is of the traditional 5.56 variety but I've been planning to get a .300 Blackout, and the 6.5 G is on my radar as well. I'm not really interested in building one. If I get one it needs to be off-the-rack. Is the lower different? What mags does it take? That is will 6.5G rounds work in a regular PMag or Lancer L5?

I've been contemplating a 6.5 CM in a bolt gun but the new Howa 6.5 Grendel also intrigues me. I would like to get back into long range (well, out to 500 yards or so) shooting. Just paper and steel, I haven't hunted in 25 years. While I know it's not target grade stuff I see that imported steel cased 6.5 G is around $.25 a pop, pretty comparable to 5.56. The CM is undoubtedly superior to the G at longer distances but I'm a duffer, not going to be competing, I just want to work up to distance for fun. A couple decades ago I used to shoot metallic silhouette and it was fun (if humbling). Do the heavier 6.5 bullets at Grendel velocity have enough oomph to knock down the ram?
 
The Lower is the same; the magazine is different but readily available. The follower is different ant the top of the magazine has been opened up to allow for the wider cartridge. The G will certainly shoot well out to 500-600 yards, but I don't know the answer to your silhouette question.

If you've got the cash Precision Firearms makes a very good G upper. Be prepared to wait though. 3 months seems to be the norm.

CZ is also coming out with a bolt action rifle this spring based off their 527 rifle. It's a wood stocked rifle with a set trigger. They are very nice.
 
What your looking for is pretty much what all the companies offer as standard id get the longer 24" barrel if your just shooting targets. 10shot grendel mags are cheap and dont stick down too far so those are what i use, ive also cut the fronts out so i could load 5-7 rounds at a longer coal.

I'm really happy with my Radical 6.5upper, cost less than anyone else but the wait time if ordered directly is quite long. Best to find them from a reseller. No experience with any oth companies upper, as i built the one im currently useing.
 
Building an 6.5 G upper for your AR isn't difficult. I bought one of Midway's 18 inch fluted AR Stoner barrels and put one together. Made a very nice light rifle
and it is very accurate. I can easily get 2500 fps with 123 grain bullets. A 24 inch barrel would add quite a bit I think.

OK, I put my glasses on 2400 fps. Most accurate at about 2380 fps with 123 SST's.
Shot several sub MOA groups today at 400 yards.

'
 
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There are some issues to be aware of with 6.5G. The taper is too high for the AR platform (which was designed for the relatively straight 5.56) so everything in the feed geometry is subtly the wrong shape, just like with a 7.62x39 AR. Sometimes this causes problems, sometimes it doesn't. Similarly, the case head is larger and more importantly deeper than the 5.56. This weakens the bolt, which is already the weak point on the AR15. Depending on how the bolt is designed and chamber cut (there are two versions of the 6.5G chamber/bolt) you get some mix of risk to break bolts and break extractors. There's also the issue that bolt thrust (pressure times case cross section) is higher in the 6.5 G than it is in 5.56, which makes the part breakage risk yet higher if loaded to max. I would go so far as to say that the SAAMI max pressure is simply wrong - the guns can't take it.

Given all those issues, I think it's unfortunate that 6.5 G has any real share of the market. It's just poorly designed, although I suppose having a bolt break on an AR is less risky than many platforms. Depending on your exact objectives, things like heavy weight 5.56, 6x45, 6.8 SPC or the new .22 Nosler may give you what you want in less problematic configurations.
 
Being that I like to stay with more standard components, I built an 6.5CM and have been very impressed with its ballistic preformance, however it uses a lot of powder ...

I like the 300BO but for ranges over 100 yards, it's more like lobbing the bullet, its a good round but it seems to only shine in sub-sonic loads.

I like the concept of the Grendel but I don't like the proprietary bolt and mags ... I think an AR with a standard bolt / mags, midi gas system and a fast burning powder like the 300 BO with a 125 grain 6.5 projectile would be "the cats meow" perhaps I'll just have to build one and have some dies custom made.
 
About a half hour after I posed the question I learned that I was mistaken; I knew the 6.5 CM was chambered in AR10's but I see that the 6.5 G has a bit smaller head diameter than I thought. I'm a little embarrassed to admit that until recently I'd never even heard of the 6.5 Grendel even though it's been around for a long time.

Right now my only AR is of the traditional 5.56 variety but I've been planning to get a .300 Blackout, and the 6.5 G is on my radar as well. I'm not really interested in building one. If I get one it needs to be off-the-rack. Is the lower different? What mags does it take? That is will 6.5G rounds work in a regular PMag or Lancer L5?

I've been contemplating a 6.5 CM in a bolt gun but the new Howa 6.5 Grendel also intrigues me. I would like to get back into long range (well, out to 500 yards or so) shooting. Just paper and steel, I haven't hunted in 25 years. While I know it's not target grade stuff I see that imported steel cased 6.5 G is around $.25 a pop, pretty comparable to 5.56. The CM is undoubtedly superior to the G at longer distances but I'm a duffer, not going to be competing, I just want to work up to distance for fun. A couple decades ago I used to shoot metallic silhouette and it was fun (if humbling). Do the heavier 6.5 bullets at Grendel velocity have enough oomph to knock down the ram?
I think the Grendel is an excellent round. If you compare it to the 6.5 Creedmoor, you could say the 6.5G is the Creedmoor's little brother, or cousin. Both shoot extremely flat, given the high BC of the larger (heavier) 6.5 bullets (123 grains or higher). Both stay supersonic well past 1000 yards. The Creedmoor's advantage is a bit more velocity, and the use of heavier bullets. 123 grains is the practical limit for the Grendel, because using 140's takes up too much case volume and powder load becomes limited, dropping velocity to the point that the advantage of the heavier bullet is negated. This is less important outside of the AR platform, since the cartridge can then be loaded longer. 140's in the Creedmoor are like Eveready Energizers, they just keep going....and going :). The Grendel is well designed and perfect for the AR15 platform, and the Creedmoor is an excellent choice for the AR10.

The 6.5G case is taken from the 7.62x39 parent, the .220 Russian, but the case taper is different because the case is both slightly shorter and altered from the 7.62x39. (look at the comparison photo below); the case neck has been blown out slightly, reducing the taper, and the taper to the neck is shorter. Like most other calibers/cases that have been developed for use in the AR platform, there are design limitations and compromises, but the main goal was to limit alterations to the gun itself, while offering improved performance of the platform grendel and ak case comparison.jpg DSC09546.JPG DSC09551.JPG . The barrel/chamber, bolt, and magazine follower are just about the only differences between a 6.5G AR and a .223 AR. You mentioned the 300BLK, in which only the barrel/chamber is different.

I can't speak to already built Grendel or Blackout uppers. I own both, which share a common lower, but I built both my guns in order to get the exact setup I wanted. I built my BLK mainly as a short/medium range defense and CQB rifle, but it is effective on steel silhouettes to 300 yards with the right loads (and I reload for both). My Grendel is built for long range and bench shooting, and it delivers sub-MOA to 300 yards (haven't had the chance yet to shoot further)
 
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There are some issues to be aware of with 6.5G. The taper is too high for the AR platform (which was designed for the relatively straight 5.56) so everything in the feed geometry is subtly the wrong shape, just like with a 7.62x39 AR. Sometimes this causes problems, sometimes it doesn't. Similarly, the case head is larger and more importantly deeper than the 5.56. This weakens the bolt, which is already the weak point on the AR15. Depending on how the bolt is designed and chamber cut (there are two versions of the 6.5G chamber/bolt) you get some mix of risk to break bolts and break extractors. There's also the issue that bolt thrust (pressure times case cross section) is higher in the 6.5 G than it is in 5.56, which makes the part breakage risk yet higher if loaded to max. I would go so far as to say that the SAAMI max pressure is simply wrong - the guns can't take it.

Given all those issues, I think it's unfortunate that 6.5 G has any real share of the market. It's just poorly designed, although I suppose having a bolt break on an AR is less risky than many platforms. Depending on your exact objectives, things like heavy weight 5.56, 6x45, 6.8 SPC or the new .22 Nosler may give you what you want in less problematic configurations.

I personally find the Grendel a worth while addition to the Hunting AR platform, as its stubby enough to load fairly long heavy bullets and still get reasonable velocity. None of the listed cartridges will launch a 123 at 2500fps or better, tho im pretty sure you could load the 6.8 up hot enough to do it. To better its performance at range, in existing ar cartridges you need to single load, or as 1stmarine has said before use custom mags and single stack the x45. This is of course greatly opinionated as i dont shoot a 6.8 so have never worked with it, or the 22 Nosler which looks like it should be a good round/case (especially wildcated). Everything Bob said tho, IS something to take into consideration when looking at the Gren, I did and got two anyway.

Other than that the only point I disagree on is that there is too much case taper for reliable feeding. I have had no issues with either of the mags I bought. I use Grendel specific mags, tho i did try it in my stock 556s mags for my .458, and i found that somewhere between 1-5rounds would feed fine from most of the 5 mags I had, but more than that and they would stack funny and or just not chamber properly.
 
There are some issues to be aware of with 6.5G. The taper is too high for the AR platform (which was designed for the relatively straight 5.56) so everything in the feed geometry is subtly the wrong shape, just like with a 7.62x39 AR. Sometimes this causes problems, sometimes it doesn't. Similarly, the case head is larger and more importantly deeper than the 5.56. This weakens the bolt, which is already the weak point on the AR15. Depending on how the bolt is designed and chamber cut (there are two versions of the 6.5G chamber/bolt) you get some mix of risk to break bolts and break extractors. There's also the issue that bolt thrust (pressure times case cross section) is higher in the 6.5 G than it is in 5.56, which makes the part breakage risk yet higher if loaded to max. I would go so far as to say that the SAAMI max pressure is simply wrong - the guns can't take it.

Given all those issues, I think it's unfortunate that 6.5 G has any real share of the market. It's just poorly designed, although I suppose having a bolt break on an AR is less risky than many platforms. Depending on your exact objectives, things like heavy weight 5.56, 6x45, 6.8 SPC or the new .22 Nosler may give you what you want in less problematic configurations.

Huh!!!

I've only got around 900 rounds through my Alexander Arms 24", with zero problems. And although it's not as common as other rounds I have a couple of friends with the AA 6.5 Grendel and all of them have had zero problems. As far as the version two chamber I don't consider it a Grendel and would not buy a gun with that chamber. Most all of the failures I hear about on the interwebz I ascribe to poor reloads, but of course no one will ever own up to that.

I've got a 5-15 Zeiss on mine and it shoots very well out to 800 yards, haven't tried it past that. I generally shoot the 123 gr. Amax for targets and the SST for hunting, I also just ordered a few boxes of the Hornady ELD load to see how they shoot. There is a 6.5 Grenfell forum and you can find a lot of information there.
 
What your looking for is pretty much what all the companies offer as standard id get the longer 24" barrel if your just shooting targets. 10shot grendel mags are cheap and dont stick down too far so those are what i use, ive also cut the fronts out so i could load 5-7 rounds at a longer coal.



I'm really happy with my Radical 6.5upper, cost less than anyone else but the wait time if ordered directly is quite long. Best to find them from a reseller. No experience with any oth companies upper, as i built the one im currently useing.

I also have a Radical Firearms 6.5 Grendel upper. Its been 100% reliable with Hornady ammo and my reloads. Its stupid accurate. Every person I've allowed to shoot it has tried to buy it...I'm not selling a sub moa rifle for anything.
 
Phaedrus/69......I recently read an article on AR15.com it is Titled " 6.5 Grendel taking over my armory " it is full of information , and fotos , it is an excellent article , liked it so much I saved it to my favorites .....Hope it helps.........
HAPPY SUPER BOWL EVERYBODY.........
 
There are some issues to be aware of with 6.5G. The taper is too high for the AR platform (which was designed for the relatively straight 5.56) so everything in the feed geometry is subtly the wrong shape, just like with a 7.62x39 AR
Grendel has a lot less taper than 7.62x39 --a lot of people wrongly assume it is 6.5x39. The feeding issues --which are real-- stem the hard limitations of the AR platform; Grendel is just barely too wide for proper feeding from double-stack mags which is why there is so much sideways pressure on the shorter feed-lips (the part of the round held by the lips is further to the side than for narrower cartridges, and therefore more sideways force is needed to resist the mag spring's force) but too narrow to simply feed single-stack like the Beowulf. It also stacks at a different angle than 5.56 so the follower needed some redesign to do higher capacities.

All that said, it does generally work, though only with steel body mags. And unfortunately, the mags on the market aren't always the best quality (my 24rnd mags have a lot of burs and are ridiculously hard to strip rounds from; my 10rnd is more normal). If the AR magwell were even .05" wider, the feed lips could be properly reinforced, and aluminum or polymer mags with much less friction would be doable. But again, the Grendel has always been about pushing right up against the limitations of the AR platform, so we'll just have to wait for polymers to get a little better before we get mags as good as for 5.56. 5.56 AR15's had crummy mags for decades, so I'm not expecting the moon right away (but soon would be nice)

Similarly, the case head is larger and more importantly deeper than the 5.56. This weakens the bolt, which is already the weak point on the AR15. Depending on how the bolt is designed and chamber cut (there are two versions of the 6.5G chamber/bolt) you get some mix of risk to break bolts and break extractors. There's also the issue that bolt thrust (pressure times case cross section) is higher in the 6.5 G than it is in 5.56, which makes the part breakage risk yet higher if loaded to max. I would go so far as to say that the SAAMI max pressure is simply wrong - the guns can't take it.
You are more right than wrong, but there's a ton of confusion in this area because of industry tool-bags making up stuff as they went along to stack up money while they could.

The Grendel bolt is deeper than the 7.62x39 bolt. There is a parody of the chambering that is reamed deeper so the same ammo can be shot using cheaper x39 bolts; this was created during the big Panic when Grendel bolts were in short supply. The reason the Grendel bolt is deeper in the first place is because the cartridge's rim is that much thicker than 5.56's. The cheap x39 bolts simply have less material in the extractor claw and are therefore weaker, but x39 is so tapered that it generally requires less extraction force, so there's no issue. Grendel is nearly straight-walled like 5.56, and has much more surface area to boot, so the decision was made to set the bolt face back so the standard-thickness extractor claw geometry could be used.

The bolt breakage issue has been resolved. Early on, the Grendel chamber had a leade optimized for accuracy; that is, the bullet was nearly up against the rifling when chambered. People liked that it shot well, but because the bullet did not get a running start before hitting the rifling, pressures reached higher peaks for a given powder/bullet load. Around the same time, a vendor sold a number of improperly heat-treated bolts (or was it just they used a cut-rate alloy?) which made them even more sensitive to the force from that peak pressure. On top of all this, the Grendel was designed to use a slightly higher peak bolt thrust than 5.56 from the get-go, again in keeping with the theme of pushing against the limits of the AR15 platform. Lastly, there were a lot of bright-eyed reloaders enamored with their accurate cartridge and long-range-capable VLD projectiles; like all benchrest cartridges, they pushed the power limits to try and flatten out the trajectory further. All these things led to a number of broken bolts, namely the bad batch by that manufacturer. Today, Grendel bolts are typically 9130 steel (slightly better than mil-spec), are properly heat treated and inspected (MPI), the chamber leade has been modified to give the bullet an easier ride into the rifling so pressures don't go quite so high, and shooters have come to realize that pushing beyond the ~40,000psi range just makes the gun less accurate. There is also a better understanding of the impact gas systems have on stressing bolt components (i.e. don't put a carbine-length on a rifle) which also helps.

To further confuse the market, a "CVS-equivalent" version of the chamber (the proper-depth Grendel on) was created by Les Baer because they wanted the freedom to modify the chamber dimensions to suit their production needs without going through Bill Alexander who had the patent rights on the design. LB wanted a simpler single-taper leade as opposed to the two-taper Grendel leade, since this cut more chambers before dulling out of spec. So they created this 264LBC cartridge, which for all intents & purposes is the same thing (i.e. it shoots the same 6.5 Grendel ammo as all the other chambers).

A lot of complaints are heaped on Bill Alexander for how he managed the deployment of the Grendel, but frankly all his worries about the market distorting his product for short-term gain and confusing customers in the long run, have proven to be completely justified. Which is why I don't begrudge him for playing his cards close to the vest as far as issuing licensing rights to produce "Grendel"-named barrels, reamers, and ammunition early on, as opposing to putting it out there for SAAMI to 'enforce' more weakly (case in point; PPU made a large batch of Grendel that was SAAMI approved...turns out the case head base dimensions were larger than they should have been, and the powder load a much higher load than spec'ed. It was eventually recalled, but not before I had a bunch of rounds get stuck in my rifle from vendors who continued selling the bad ammo anyway)

TCB
 
The grendel is a great round for whitetails. I have a custom with a lilja barrel that shoots hornady 123gr amax load sub-moa and puts a whooping on game. It is shooting 2540 fps out of my 22" barrel. I may get into a second rifle soon.
 
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