I bought some Lake City military surplus from MidWay that is 62 gr and has a green tip. Someone told me it was armor piercing but would like to verify. All I do is target shooting 100 to 200 yards. This stuff just does not get the groups I want for sure. If it is armour piercing that is probably why. If this is armor piercing why would the get less accuracy. Anyway - I swagged the brass etc and cleaned them up. I measure them and they all appears to be about 1.60 to 1.65. My books indicate 1.75. Is there any problem with them being that much different. I know I will probably want to start with the lower load and work up. Is Lake City a thicker cartridge than say a remington? I notice in one of my books Varget for the 69 gr sierra hpbth is supposedly the most accurate. That is what I plan to reload with. Just concerned with the trim length. My twist is 8 inches for this rifle. I also will try the 77 gr sierra hpbt. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
AR15 Rockriver & Lakecity military surplus ammo
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highlander 5
Member
Nato green tip is "armor' piercing soft armor IIRC. it is supposed to penetrate a military kevlar helmet out to 600 meters or 660 yds. Case length should be ok but what size groups are you getting and at what distance. I shoot a bolt and can get 1 ' at 100yds with the GTs Not owning an ar I can't speak to rate of twist but 1 in 8 should be ok my bolt has a 1 in 9 twist.
BTW almost any centerfire rifle ammo could be considered "armor piercing'
BTW almost any centerfire rifle ammo could be considered "armor piercing'
toecutter
Member
the M855/SS-109 is supposed to be armor piercing, but really isn't. M855 is listed as "Ball ammo" under military covention, a number of people say that it's armor piercing on account of the steel plug it has. The reason for this was to make the bullet longer, and lower the BC. This was done originally by FN for the M249/MINIMI machinegun to make it effective out to 1000 yards.
I shoot a lot of these, and when they were first available, I did shoot quite a few of them at steel and noticed slightly better penetration, but nowhere near enough to call it actual AP. I've shot 5.56 AP ammo, and it makes short work of half inch mild steel even at long range.
As far as your accuracy performance, I'm not surprised, the military specification is 2 MOA for most ammo. Sometimes it shoots better, sometimes worse. The other thing to take into account is that all military ammo must be demilled before it can be sold on the civilian market. So it's possible that the bullets still have some pull marks where they are seated. Reducing the accuracy of these.
As far as bullets and so forth for reloading, the LC (or any mil) brass usually has a much thicker web, reducing the case capacity. Sometimes they even look like it's enough to cause an over-charge but I have never seen the signs of high pressure looking at reloads I've made. I usually load with 25gr of varget behind either 62gr FMJ (SS-109) bullets I buy surplus, or 55gr FMJ's I buy commercially. I am in the process of working up mil spec loads in this powder but havn't had the time.
I have loaded the 75gr AMAX bullets, and they just come out goofy, they really can't be seated deep enough to fit in an AR-15 magazine. They must be seated so deep the ogive is in the neck of the case.
I've loaded quite a few of the sierra 69gr HP-BT match bullets and I've had good experience with them. For shooting at paper, I would just go for a mid-weight bullet (about 60 grs) either the SS109 bullet, or a 55gr FMJ for paper punching. If I wanted to get serious about my accuracy, I would just buy big lots and QC my components (weigh cases, primers, powder, and bullets) to get a desireable result.
As for trim length, I usually trim to 1.750" and load a cartridge OAL of 2.250" no matter what bullets I'm using (I can't remember what I load my 55gr OAL to, but I load so the bullet cannelure is right at the case mouth so i can crimp it in place.)
I shoot a lot of these, and when they were first available, I did shoot quite a few of them at steel and noticed slightly better penetration, but nowhere near enough to call it actual AP. I've shot 5.56 AP ammo, and it makes short work of half inch mild steel even at long range.
As far as your accuracy performance, I'm not surprised, the military specification is 2 MOA for most ammo. Sometimes it shoots better, sometimes worse. The other thing to take into account is that all military ammo must be demilled before it can be sold on the civilian market. So it's possible that the bullets still have some pull marks where they are seated. Reducing the accuracy of these.
As far as bullets and so forth for reloading, the LC (or any mil) brass usually has a much thicker web, reducing the case capacity. Sometimes they even look like it's enough to cause an over-charge but I have never seen the signs of high pressure looking at reloads I've made. I usually load with 25gr of varget behind either 62gr FMJ (SS-109) bullets I buy surplus, or 55gr FMJ's I buy commercially. I am in the process of working up mil spec loads in this powder but havn't had the time.
I have loaded the 75gr AMAX bullets, and they just come out goofy, they really can't be seated deep enough to fit in an AR-15 magazine. They must be seated so deep the ogive is in the neck of the case.
I've loaded quite a few of the sierra 69gr HP-BT match bullets and I've had good experience with them. For shooting at paper, I would just go for a mid-weight bullet (about 60 grs) either the SS109 bullet, or a 55gr FMJ for paper punching. If I wanted to get serious about my accuracy, I would just buy big lots and QC my components (weigh cases, primers, powder, and bullets) to get a desireable result.
As for trim length, I usually trim to 1.750" and load a cartridge OAL of 2.250" no matter what bullets I'm using (I can't remember what I load my 55gr OAL to, but I load so the bullet cannelure is right at the case mouth so i can crimp it in place.)
wanderinwalker
Member
One: Check your case capacity. Most lots of recent vintage Lake City ARE NOT thicker than commercial counterparts. On the contrary, most of my supply of 99-02 LC brass is lighter and has more room than most commercial brass (except my older lots of Winchester brass).
Two: If you're going to load 69gr or 77gr bullets in .223, try either Varget or RL-15. I like Varget and a CCI-400 primer best myself, though BR4s work great too (80gr 600-yard loads), I'm just too cheap to use them in ALL of my ammo. For Varget I can almost guarantee you'll end up between 23.5 and 25gr of powder for your best accuracy with a 69gr (or a 77 or 80 for that matter).
Also, unless you're absolutely married to using the Sierras, try the Nosler Custom Competition bullets in the same weights. They work great IME, and I haven't shot a Sierra since I tried my first batch of Noslers.
Good luck and HTH.
Edited: If you're serious about seeing the ultimate accuracy of your rifle, don't bother with the bulk pack bullets.
Two: If you're going to load 69gr or 77gr bullets in .223, try either Varget or RL-15. I like Varget and a CCI-400 primer best myself, though BR4s work great too (80gr 600-yard loads), I'm just too cheap to use them in ALL of my ammo. For Varget I can almost guarantee you'll end up between 23.5 and 25gr of powder for your best accuracy with a 69gr (or a 77 or 80 for that matter).
Also, unless you're absolutely married to using the Sierras, try the Nosler Custom Competition bullets in the same weights. They work great IME, and I haven't shot a Sierra since I tried my first batch of Noslers.
Good luck and HTH.
Edited: If you're serious about seeing the ultimate accuracy of your rifle, don't bother with the bulk pack bullets.
I sure appreciate all the good information. I am getting about 1 1/2 with the green tips. They say this rifle will get 3/4 easy. I get well below that with my 22-250 bolt action and .308 bolt action so I am just expecting the same with the AR. Real nice rifle and just want to get to full potential. So what I am hearing is dont worry about the 1.60 to1.65 trim length that I have.
Exactly what is demilling?
Exactly what is demilling?
P-32
Member
I shoot alot of Lake City Brass in my NM AR for high power. I use 69 to 80 gr. SMK's depending on the distance I'm shooting.
As you know, L/C brass has crimped primers. After removing the crimp with a swage, I uniform the primer pockets. I found uniforming the primer pockets is about the best bang for the buck.
If I'm looking for very tight groups like what is needed at 600 yards, I weigh the cases after depriming and hold them to a 1/2 gr. or less.
For powder, I found my rifle really likes Reloader 15 and Remington 7 1/2 primers. The Remington 7 1/2's shoot about the same as CCI BR's so I am able to switch if needed. Both CCI and Remington hold up to service rifle use better than Win or Federal's.
I load the 69 and 77 gr. SMK's to mag length with the 80 gr. being .015 off the lands.
As you know, L/C brass has crimped primers. After removing the crimp with a swage, I uniform the primer pockets. I found uniforming the primer pockets is about the best bang for the buck.
If I'm looking for very tight groups like what is needed at 600 yards, I weigh the cases after depriming and hold them to a 1/2 gr. or less.
For powder, I found my rifle really likes Reloader 15 and Remington 7 1/2 primers. The Remington 7 1/2's shoot about the same as CCI BR's so I am able to switch if needed. Both CCI and Remington hold up to service rifle use better than Win or Federal's.
I load the 69 and 77 gr. SMK's to mag length with the 80 gr. being .015 off the lands.
Ammo Oracle
The M855/SS-109 round was developed by FN in the late 70's to increase long range penetration, which the M193 round lacked. M855 is not AP, if it were you wouldn't be able to legally possess it.
IIRC, everything from RRA is 1:9 twist, unless you got a match barrel or something. Your rifle may not like 62gr ball ammo. Some 1:9 rifles don't get along well with heavyer grain bullets. Try some 55gr and see what happens.
The M855/SS-109 round was developed by FN in the late 70's to increase long range penetration, which the M193 round lacked. M855 is not AP, if it were you wouldn't be able to legally possess it.
IIRC, everything from RRA is 1:9 twist, unless you got a match barrel or something. Your rifle may not like 62gr ball ammo. Some 1:9 rifles don't get along well with heavyer grain bullets. Try some 55gr and see what happens.
Grump
Member
Reports I've seen indicate that M855 ammo will typically shoot no better than 3 MOA from AR-series rifles, and often only 4 MOA. Better batches of M193 routinely shoot 2 MOA, no worse than 3 MOA.
Why do you think the MK262 or whatever with the Sierra 77-gr HPBT bullet is getting so popular with the troops?
Why do you think the MK262 or whatever with the Sierra 77-gr HPBT bullet is getting so popular with the troops?
Bottom Gun
Member
M855 will shoot better than 3 MOA.
Here is a 5 shot 100 yd group from a stock 16" Bushmaster. I shot it using Winchester M855.
Here is a 5 shot 100 yd group from a stock 16" Bushmaster. I shot it using Winchester M855.
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dmftoy1
Member
I'm not sure what reloading manual you're using but I just checked the Hornady 6th Edition, Lyman 48th and whatever Sierra manual I have and they show 1.760 as the maximum length and 1.750 as the minimum trim length. Is the 1.60-1.65 before you've resized them by any chance?
I think that if you're getting 1 1/2 groups with the green tips you're doing pretty well. Is your AR free floated or a standard handguard? If it's not free floated then I think you're doing really well. When I went to a higher end bullet (Sierra 69gr's HPBT or Hornady 68 HPBT) I immediately cut my group sizes in half.
Just my .02
Regards,
Dave
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