AR15 Varmint Upgrades

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D_H81

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I just bought an AR15 from a buddy who needed a bit of financial help. The Rifle has never been shot, has a collapsible stock, 16" barrel, muzzle break, and spring loaded iron sights.

The problem is, I don't have a need or desire for a short assault rifle but I would love to upgrade it for Varmint use. I saw this youtube video and I think it would be awesome to combine that type of close range utility with the accuracy to work as a coyote rifle out to 200-250 yards.

Just from a bit of internet research, I'm thinking that a 20 or 24" stainless barrel will be ideal. I'd like hear about how other people have customized their AR's and what they use them for.

Lastly, what are your thoughts on using a suppressor with the AR15?
 
If you reload the rifle is probably a 1.0 moa rifle, I would agree with previous
post trigger on most AR's are greatest deterrent to accuracy then barrel.
 
i love my geissele SSA, but it's more geared towards a self defense DMR buld. You should just do what i did and call them and tell them what your needs are and they'll suggest the right trigger for you.

ETA: it's pretty easy to do yourself. i didn't really have a choice though because all of the gunsmiths around here charge insane prices for any kind of work. $60 labor, one hour minimum etc. and they make no promises not scratch or otherwise screw up your rifle.
 
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I agree there is nothing wrong with what you have for a varmint rifle.

I have a 16" Colt that has taken coyotes at well over 300 yards.

That long heavy barrel and scope & bipod makes for a very heavy hunting rifle real fast.
Many folks find the attraction of a 24" AR not so great when they start carrying it around hunting.
Or break the side window out of the car getting it out if the back seat hand over hand.

rc
 
I like AR's, I've owned one for about 15 years. I build AR's, sometimes in my sleep (I dream about it!). I've built a lot of them, including SOPMOD upgrades for my SDM students when the parts were available. I was taught by an SF gunsmith everything I didn't learn from Colt's manual. I have all the proper tools and gear.

Now, the last rifle I built was an M4 that is simply a close copy to the one I had in the army, but with a different trigger and suppressor mount. The one before that was a Grendel. A true tackdriver. The Grendel is the one I'd like to discuss as it is pretty close to what you want, but perhaps overkill. It is a 1000m rifle.

So, the most important parts are 1. the barrel, 2. the trigger, 3. the rest of it: good parts that are in spec or the best you can get, but they need to be reliable. Milspec at the very least if you are trying to do it on a budget. If it isn't milspec, or exceeds these specifications, don't bother with it.

For the Grendel, I used a stainless Satern barrel. They are very expensive though, this one was $400 and the .300BLK I just ordered is $550. Nothing compares though, nothing. Next is Krieger and Wilson. They make good barrels too, some folks may even say they are better than Satern (but I doubt it, he is one guy that does AWESOME work). The stainless barrel with cut rifling will give you the best accuracy, button rifling will suffice, but you want stainless for accuracy. Hammer forged and chrome lined, those are combat barrels. They last longer than stainless, but aren't as accurate to begin with. Stick to stainless. If you get a fluted one, make sure they flute the barrel stock before cutting the bore, and make sure they line the gas port up in a groove and not on a land, or worse, between a groove and land. Good luck finding a shop that will accomdate though, only one I know of for certain is Satern. Krieger or Wilson may do this though. And there may be others I don't know of. Satern is a small shop in Oklahoma or some such. DO NOT get a barrel by a cheap maker. Good barrels are only a little more than junk barrels, and some just don't perform that well to begin with. A $500 Sabre 6.5G barrel, tested against four other rifles, had the worst group using factory ammo. Worse than the J&T manufacturing rifle! The most expensive barrels generally are only slightly better than the really good ones. Keep that in mind, and go with a barrel maker that is known for good quality. I've named three really good ones for you.

The trigger that went into the Grendel was an RRA NM 2stage that came out of another rifle. I was going to put a high speed Geissele in it, but after playing with most of the high end triggers out there (Rainier Arms here has them on demo) I determined that my tuned RRA was as good or better than most others out there --without true measured lock times, you can't make an informed decision past how it feels to you, and that thread didn't go anywhere on here because nobody has the lock times published (or so few do that it doesn't help). Overtravel, creep, etc., that is what to look for. The RRA 2stage is also the cheapest 2stage trigger you can get and it is VERY durable. Works great. When I got it, it was a little "stiff". But after polishing the engagement surfaces (NOT removing material!) it is a very fine 3lbs or so on the 2nd stage, and super light on the 1st. The Geissele 3gun trigger on the other hand, the one in my M4, is super fast. Almost machinegun fast. Feels like a short one stage, although it is a 2 stage. Geissele makes great triggers in a great variety, if you know what you are looking for in a trigger, they are the ones to go to. If not, or if the selection isn't that dire, then just go with the RRA 2stage. I'm sure you'll be quite pleased. I wouldn't trade the one I have for a new Geissele, that is how much I like it. Once they are tuned, they are phenomenal.

You have receivers and small parts and such so you are good to go. You will need to find a shop to install your barrel, you can do the trigger yourself if you watch some youtube videos and/or get the Colt armorer's manual (surplus stores). Look around, prices vary CONSIDERABLY from sane to loco regarding barrel installation.

Your sights. I don't know what you mean by spring loaded... You mean factory sights? Your factory irons will work fine. If you want better irons, you can get a thin front post and NM rear. If you have a flat top, you can get a scope (if you don't have a flat top you can get a scope, it just works better this way). Don't get high magnification (most common problem, 4x or 6x work great on an AR). Don't get a cheap scope. Expect to spend about the same on the rifle as the scope for most rifles up to $1000, maybe a little more. A cheap scope can effectively neutralize all that you gained with the barrel and trigger.

Since you have a carbine, I'd get a full stock if you plan on doing long range stuff with it. They do make some, Magpul I think, that work like a full stock but use the collapsible buffer tube, so you won't have to get that. But when I use full stocks, I like the plain military ones. I prefer the A1 stocks to the A2 as they are a little shorter.

Now, since you have a carbine and you are getting a long barrel, you need handguards. You would be best served by free floating, that can really do a lot for long range work. Trust me big time on this one. I like Knight's Armament, the M5 FF rail, I have a few of them, but I also have an el-cheapo Oly FIRSH rail. Most would call it junk, I'd call it cheap and out of spec, but I have to admit it accepts the bipod just fine, it does free float the barrel, is just as accurate as the KAC given the barrel, stays on fine with loctite, and only cost $99. Oh, and I've had this one since '03 and I even used it in the army for bit.

If you want to convert that rifle to a varmint rifle, a true varmint style rifle, then you will be better off keeping that one the way it is and just building or buying a varmint rifle. All the big makers offer one. If you go to Rainier Arms, I can promise you they won't sell you junk because they don't carry junk. They'll also build a rifle to your specs, and if something won't work, they'll bring it up. Great guys, if I couldn't build my own, I'd certainly use them.

Another option is to order a complete upper and use your lower as it is for now. Later on, you can order a lower built to your specs, or just get one already built. Rainier can do both. Then you would have two rifles, price spread out over time, and wouldn't have to damage the rifle you have or end up with a bunch of parts you can't use. See, by the time you convert this into a true varmint rifle, you will have spend almost enough to do what I'm talking about.

Now, what kind of rifle did you get? Pictures? See, if you have a nice rifle like a Noveske or LMT or Colt, it would be a shame to modify it. If it is a plinker model though, or a lesser manufacturer, modify away! But if you plan on a lot of mods, it is better to just build it into another rifle over time. Been there and done that too.

Oh, suppressors. Yes, you can use a suppressor on an AR. I just put an AAC mount on four different rifles to use an SDN6 suppressor. I'll get the M42000 later on down the road. Now when you use a suppressor on a 5.56mm, don't expect quiet. Expect .22lr with no suppressor. Sounds a lot like 10/22 with no suppressor. The 7.62 suppressors will work on there too, they are a tad louder but the normal human ear can't discern it. The biggest difference is that the 7.62 suppressors tend to be deeper in sound than the 5.56. If you want to use it on more than one rifle, calibre, get the 7.62. Take a look at AAC, there are others, but they have a good mount selection and you can use the cans on lots of hosts. Now since the round still sounds like a .22, you may still want earpro. What the suppressor does do, is that it kills flash period. No flash. It also masks the direction of the shooter. It is quite difficult in the field to tell where an unkown suppressed shot came from. I don't know how useful this is in varmint hunting, I don't do it, but when hunting people it works quite well (I don't do that either, anymore!).

If you are interested in suppressed AR's, and decide that converting the one you have is not economical, take a look at the .300BLK. Awesome. Can't wait for my Satern bbl. This round can fire supersonic rounds at near AK ballistics, but fires heavy .308 bullets at subsonic speeds through a suppressor and (they claim) is quieter than an MP5SD! Good to 300m.

I have 'em in 5.56mm, 6.5G, .50Beo, and now .300BLK (soon). Plan on a 6mmAR and some other wildcats maybe in the future before moving on to the SCAR17 platform to see what I can mess up there.

I have a wealth of knowledge on AR's and such, if you have specific questions or need, PM me and I'll try and answer it, and if I can't, I'll say so or point you to someone who can.

Sorry so long, just trying to help and I have more to say than this, so pick my brain while you can. Provide me with specifics and I can give you better answers.
 
I agree there is nothing wrong with what you have for a varmint rifle.

I have a 16" Colt that has taken coyotes at well over 300 yards.

That long heavy barrel and scope & bipod makes for a very heavy hunting rifle real fast.
Many folks find the attraction of a 24" AR not so great when they start carrying it around hunting.
Or break the side window out of the car getting it out if the back seat hand over hand.

rc
Or you can do this. I taught SDM's and we used stock army M4's, upgraded with SOPMOD kits when available, with ACOG scopes. An SDM can hit a point target to 600m with an issue M4 rifle. So it most certainly can do the varmint job.

If you want a "varmint rifle model" then you should pay attention to what I wrote above. If you just want to shoot varmints part time or don't care about having that kind of gear, yes, a plain jane M4 or AR will do just fine.

You will need to master it though, and if those iron sights are flip ups, you'll need real sights or a scope. Those aren't accurate enough for what you want to do. I have a $200 KAC flip sight and it is one of the best you can get, graded to 600m, but you aren't hitting a point target at 600m with it. Needed the carry handle for that.
 
Get a Geissele Automatics SSA trigger. Swap the barrel for a BCM 18" SS410 barrel, order a new complete bolt carrier group (bolt will be headspaced to the barrel). Also install a Centurion Arms C4 rail. Light, rock solid, good-looking, drops onto a mil-spec barrel nut. For an optic get a LaRue mount and a 2.5-10x Vortex Viper PST. For a muzzle device get either a Battlecomp 1.5, an FSC-556 or an AAC Blackout.
For a varmint rig I'd suggest a PRS stock on an A2 buffer tube.
If you want a bipod, get an Atlas Version 10 Bipod from B&T Industries, mount it to an LT171 LaRue mount.

That setup is how I'd approach varmint hunting, albeit with a Vltor MUR-1 upper as well. That shopping list is significant. The most important items are the first five, but they are definitely not cheap.
 
I think it kind of depends on what you mean by varmint. How small a varmint do you need to hit?

This was what my idea of a varmint/precision rig was...

DSC_0004.jpg

It shot very well, was compact when compared to a 20"+ rig and weighed 10lbs without the bipod. It's based on a Superior Barrels 18" barrel with rifle length gas. Very light recoil impulse for fast follow up shots and not bad at all to carry. I shot a conservative 77gr load out of it moving at around 2700fps.

I used a Geissele SSA-E trigger. Not the lightest trigger, but it breaks cleanly and the pull weight was appropriate for a field rig.

I do agree that for most people the trigger can be a limiting factor, especially when the adrenaline is pumping. I saw that one or two people mentioned the Rock River two stage. I know that they are popular because they do offer a pretty nice feel for a very low price, but I've had too many of them give up the ghost at around 2500-3000 rounds.
 
Put on a 3x9 or 4x12 scope on that rifle and do some load workup if you are a handloader before you start changing things. If not a handloader try some premium ammo from a few different companies. You may be surprised how good it shoots.
 
Lots of advise to just upgrade the trigger. I'm not saying it's bad advise, because it isn't. I just think that the term "varmint rifle" has different meaning for different people. If you have a run of the 16" chrome lined barrel, odds are that you could get it to shoot pretty well with good ammunition, but for some types of varmint shooting, you will be shooting a lot. If this is the type of varmint shooting that you'll do, then that 16" chromelined barrel may not do.

With some barrels accuracy can take a real nose dive when the barrel gets good and hot.
 
i agree with Tony. if by 'varmint' you mean coyotes and such, then the carbine you've got will do just fine. if you mean 'prairie dog' then you probably do want to switch to a 20" barrel... but it's not just the barrel length you want to change, it's the TWIST because the 1-7 twist is for heavy military bullets (60+ grains) whereas for many varminters seem to prefer 40-52g bullets in a 1-12 to 1-14 twist for maximum varmint explosion


re: triggers vs barrels
the bbl is more important to accuracy of the gun, but the trigger can make it easier to shoot.

for a prairie dog type gun, you will probably want a very light, crisp trigger. if you want the geissele, get the hi-speed match. the SSA is a non-adjustable combat trigger; would be good for coyote style varmints, but not so much for p-dogs

for a pdog type gun, you will probably want to replace the forearm with a round tube style (like the one in tony's pic) one that will ride well on a front rest. for a coyote type gun, keep the short plastic carbine stuff

for a pdog type gun, get a stock you can shoot well prone for hours at a time. for a coyote type gun, you can upgrade the stock but it's not necessary

as for suppressors...
for a pdog type gun i would recommend against it for several reasons, but if you do get one, make it a thread on style, not a "quick attach". for coyote style, get a quick attach.
 
againstthagrane, the color fill is an option. I got it that way.

taliv hit on a good point that I actually thought about, but completely forgot to mention. If you want to shoot at small varmints, the heavy weight bullets may not be what you want to use. The barrel on the rifle above is a 1:7 or 1:8 twist. I don't remember which, but I went that route because I shoot 55gr and above exclusively.

As far as the trigger goes, the SSA is a combat trigger. The SSA-E that I'm running is a bit more refined, but not meant to be a precision trigger. I like it because there are no adjustments to worry about and it's rock solid. I don't have any problems shooting accurately with it, but if my rig was a dedicated varmint rig, I would have gone with a "better" trigger. The Geissele High Speed line is about as good as it gets.

If you want to shoot the lighter stuff, up to around 55gr, I'd opt for a 1:12 twist barrel. If you want to take all of the guess work out of it, just call Krieger and get one of their barrels and KNOW that you have one of, if not, the best barrels available.

Just don't fall into the belief that you NEED a heavy barrel for the rifle to shoot accurately. What you need is a good barrel in a medium profile.
 
TonyAngel, I think that AR is about as perfectly setup as it gets. For my use I'd switch the the Geissele Hi Speed and accept having adjustments. I'd probably also stick with a standard A1 or A2 buttstock. Even without those changes I think that's one of the better thought out rifles and one that certainly comes as close to filling all roles as I would be using an AR for. Quality barrel, quality trigger, simple handguard. Nice rifle.
 
Thanks for the replies! I am building for Prairie Dogs and bigger. I have a pair of Ruger 10/22's that I have been using for years but since the AR fell into my lap I need to make it my own now.

I'm going to start with a nice 3x9 Scope, probably the Leopold Mark AR. And see if I can smooth out the stock Trigger myself. If I screw it up I'll just have to replace it with a nice aftermarket trigger assembly. Then after a few hundred rounds through the 16" barrel, I'll have a better idea of what I need to upgrade. I do like the look for the Round Tube style forearm with bipod.

Has anyone tried the High Capacity Magazines? http://www.surefire.com/HighCapacityMagazines
 
What brand / model upper does it currently have? I didn't see that mentioned.
 
$9.95 for a set of JP Products reduced power springs will make quite a bit of difference in the stock trigger. I wouldn't call it a great trigger but definitely much better than stock and the cost isn't going to hurt. I'm using a set now while I make up my mind just what aftermarket trigger I want. I am leaning toward the 3# Timney just because I've used some Timney triggers over the years and been very happy with them. Still looking at all the options though. I'm physically unable to shoot a rifle right now and it will be 2 -3 months before I can. I should be able to make a decision by then. :)
 
Since this is just going to be a varmint rig, playing around with the springs might not be a bad idea. Just don't go too light or you might have problems with light strikes on rounds with hard primers. You might also want to bob the hammer to keep the lock time down.

I wouldn't however, go polishing or stoning on the stock trigger. I know that lots of guys have had satisfactory results, but there have also been lots of guys with ARs going full auto on them. When you doctor a trigger and inadvertently go through the hardening, it's only a matter of time before you have a failure of some sort.

If you just don't want to spend the money on a really good trigger, at least look at the Rock River two stage. It has a good feel and will last at least 2500 rounds and if it does go bad, it won't be in such a way that creates a danger.
 
Spikes Tactical

Swap the buffer for an A5 buffer assembly from Vltor, and put a Troy 13" Alpha Rail on it (you'll need to cut your gas block down with a Dremel tool, there are guides to do this online). For an optic, look at Vortex Viper PST line, their 2.5-10x is an excellent optic for this task. 1/4MOA or .1Mil-radian adjustments, good reticle, not too expensive, and I'd say it outdoes the Leopold by a good amount (more precise adjustments, I like the reticle better). Put it in a LaRue mount. A Harris or Atlas bipod on a LaRue mount would complete the package. The Spikes barrel will be plenty good enough for your current uses, given that you're shooting prairie dogs and bigger. With good ammo, glass, and shooter, a Spikes barrel will see you out to 400, I'd assume. From there, you can decide on whether you want a more precise barrel. A 16" SS410 BCM barrel would give you a 1-1.5 MOA platform with good ammo or handloads.
 
This was the rig that I was shooting before I went to the 18"....

DSC_0007.jpg

The 16" was very accurate as well and the BCM SS410 barrels are capable of much more than just 1 to 1.5 MOA acccuracy. The reason that I went with the 18" wasn't because of accuracy. I went with the 18" because it shoots a lot more smoothly.

As for the scope, the Vortex PST line is pretty nice, although I didn't care for the turrets. The clicks were too fine and prone to being inadvertently turned. They are nice scope though. The guy that I sold mine to likes it a lot. Still, you could also take a look at the Sightron SIII line.

As far as magnification goes, my choice of the 2.5-10X32 was sort of a trade off between compactness and magnification. I no longer run that scope on any precision rigs. I found myself wanting more magnification most of the time. For a small varmint rig, I wouldn't go smaller than a 16X or so. I'm running 5.5-22X50s now and like them a lot better.
 
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