AR15 - why so expensive?

[InfernoMDM]

I think its time to test this bad johnny out. I guess I'll have to beat the snot out of my AK, but thats ok. Anyone up for testing this bad johnny on there AR-15? If so I'll do the same to my AK and see hot it comes out.

Its probably going to take me a couple weeks to get to the range. Make sure you document everything. Hell I'll take some pictures and see how it does.

Note not all Dirt is the same and I will understand if a gun reacts differently with soil issues. Sand however should be pretty straight forward?

So anyone want to test this out?

Should we test it out like this guy? or some other technique?

Reliability test AK-47

 

[cracked butt]

The Ak reliability test just shows that if you put sand in an AK it starts to jam. Whooptie-do. The same thing will happen to any firearm.

I for one don't understand why anyone would abuse a firearm in such a way, dropping them out of buildings or burying them in sand or mud is foolishness. I wouldn't do this with a $300 AK and I certainly wouldn't do it with a $800 AR.

An old aviation mechanic once told me "if you want something to last, treat it like you would treat your watch."

 

[InfernoMDM]

Hahaha I beat the hell out of my watch. This things been to Iraq and back(beat the snot out of it there). Its lasted, but a Casio G-shock is designed for abuse.

I doubt anyone will take me up on the AK vs M-16 test. I may test it anyways, when I have cash and time to beat the snot out of it and replace it.

 

[Litefoot]

Without getting into the actual performance and/or reliability data in regards to the AR vs AK argument, let's looks at it from a "human nature" perspective.

People who buy something less expensive oftentimes want to feel like they got a good deal and were smart to not spend more money on an alternative item which they perceive to be "not better".

People who buy something more expensive oftentimes want to feel justified by claiming that more money bought better quality.

In regards to the AR/AK thing, both views have merit. And likewise, both could be argued passionately.

 

[KW]

Just don't forget to throw the AK out a window, run it over with a bus, and leave it soaking in salt-water for a week.

Seriously, I don't think anyone is arguing that the AK isn't a durable, reliable weapon. But it's made out of 1-2mm of stamped steel, and subject to the laws of physics like everything else.

And despite internet lore to the contrary, the AR-15/M-16 series have proven to be reliable and effective weapons over the past 40 years.

In the vast majority of cases, deciding between these two based on reliability is like deciding between a Corvette and a Porsche based on their top speed when all you do is drive around downtown New York.

 

[InfernoMDM]

Well I have seen several (6-8) M-16s jam repeatedly and it wasnt a magazine issue. Thats why I completely disagree on reliability. I have seen many M-16s work fine, but I havent see a AK jam repeatedly yet. Thats not internet lore thats from personal experince.

 

[bnolsen]

I thought of buying an AK a couple times, I know the ammo is cheap and plentiful. So I bought a Ruger Mini-30.

Dude, the mini-30 isnt' designed to fire russian 7.62x39. The russian ammo is .311, the mini-30 fires .308 ammo. I'd bet your accuracy is absolutely lousy.

 

[bnolsen]

And despite internet lore to the contrary, the AR-15/M-16 series have proven to be reliable and effective weapons over the past 40 years.

Arguments like this are stupid.

Look at the freaking weapon. The gas fouls directly back into the action.
Now please tell me that this is a wise, smart, rational design?

It isn't! When I go to a firing range I see powder swirling around downrange (indoor). In an AR-15 portions of that powder that should be swiring downrange or going out an isolated gas tube is going directly back into your receiver where the rounds feed.

Yes, 40 years has refined the design to the point that they've done everything they can to compensate for the fact that huge amounts of unnecessary, sticky crap is blown back into the action. I'm sure getting around these gigantic design faults has resulted in some major feats of clever engineering.

If the crappy FRENCH design had never been used that wouldn't be an issue. Yes, the AR-15 is directly descended from a line of FRENCH rifles.

It's always fun to go after the AR-15 lovers. It's almost like teasing Democrats.

 

[mtnbkr]

In the vast majority of cases, deciding between these two based on reliability is like deciding between a Corvette and a Porsche based on their top speed when all you do is drive around downtown New York.

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

Arguing the durability of one design over the other or the accuracy of one over the other (unless you hunt or compete with the rifle) is silly for most of us. If you observe even basic firearm maintenance, you're not going to have problems with the AR. The AK isn't as accurate as the AR, but unless you're shooting paper off the bench, you're not likely to notice or care. I doubt many buy it for anything other than a plinker anyway.

That said, I'm building my AR because I'm interested in the modular nature of the gun. I intend to have at least two uppers for it, one in 5.56 and one in 458 or larger. I definately won't have a bunch of crap bolted to it (maybe a scope, but no lights, lasers, handles, can openers, etc).

Chris

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Dude, the mini-30 isnt' designed to fire russian 7.62x39. The russian ammo is .311, the mini-30 fires .308 ammo. I'd bet your accuracy is absolutely lousy.

Maybe you should inform Ruger that their rifle isn't designed to fire 7.62x39 ammo since they market the rifle as taking that ammunition.

 

[Wedge]

I think he was talking about the bore diameter of the Mini-30, not the cartridge it is chambered for.

The foreign made bullet for the 7.62x39 is 0.311" but I am pretty sure that while the mini-30 is chambered for the 7.62x39 (NOT .308 Win) it actually has a bore diameter of 0.308"...

 

[Master Blaster]

As far as the fouling issue goes, when I fire my Ar's and my AKs at the range 100 rounds each in a sitting, I take them home and clean them, there is just as much and often more fouling in the AK as there is in the AR. Using decent clean ammo, and my own hand loads as well, the AR- has surprisingly little fouling in the bolt lugs and carrier group.

I have yet to see that tiny gas tube plug with the sticky fouling some here have mentioned, and the gas tube has a pretty small diameter opening.

Anyone here who actually owns an AR ever have to clean out their gas tube because it plugged shut with fouling??????

My guess is that the reason you heard about M-16's jamming in Iraq, was due to the fact that SOME of our soldiers did not properly clean or maintain their rifles. Since they were new to the desert environment its not that surprising, but I suspect that they have all since learned to clean their rifles.
You dont hear complaints from the Iraqis about AKs jamming because they have all lived in the desert their entire lives, adn are well aware of how to clean sand out of their AK's.

The AR system has a small multi-lug rotating bolt that is very closely fitted, and the system is pretty well sealed, but not impervious to fine dust. The AK had a two lug rotating bolt system and lots of big holes that dust can enter through. I'm sure that if you neglected an AK for a few days in the desert it would jam also.

Another factor is the type and quantity of lubricant used by the Iraqis to maintain the AK, a heavy dose of oil will cause the mechanism to attract dirt and jam. I suspect that they use very little or even no oil.

If the crappy FRENCH design had never been used that wouldn't be an issue. Yes, the AR-15 is directly descended from a line of FRENCH rifles.

The french design, thats a new one on me what french rifle is the AR based upon?????????

 

[c22m22c]

kw...i have put things in saltwater and used them. have i put an ak in it, and used? no. have i put an ar in it, and used it? no. but i'd feel more comfortable with the ak based on my personal observations of the two systems in "less than ideal" conditions.

i read from some other people that the probability of having to use the weapons in the conditions we've described is remote, and those people are absolutely right. very remote.

also, the people who say learn to shoot both effectively are saying good things.

as you (kw) said, the issue of the ak's reliability/durability isn't an issue. fine. then we'll just accept that they're reliable AND durable. a point which kinda conflicts with your previous statements about saltwater/vehicle crush tests. i think i know what you're saying though. we've all seen weapons of legendary quality fail. some catastophically.

i'd like to appologize if my initial post came off too "high-handed" or too "over-the-top-ish." not my intent. i tend to use exageration to illustrate my points. my fault, so allow me to correct it. the israeli test performed was related to me by a person i work with. someone who's intelligence in the matter I trust. i don't expect anyone else to believe this, which is why i'm gonna press him for information concerning that test, and i'll post it here for all to see. that to me, seems the most reasonable, and logical response.

and whoever said that AR malfs in iraq was partially due to the inability to properly maintain the weapon on the behalf of new guys...you are PARTIALLY correct. these rifles, in current issue, aren't the "hot of the shelf models" we want or think them to be. they are old. they are tired. and they are abused. and in most cases, they are cleaned to some of the most intense levels. (a point i've argued MANY times against) so...yeah...the new guys, who oil their weapons down in the desert WILL have problems, thanks to that oil holding the sand. and the "ak-totin' hordes" who've been there all their lives will know better. in the end however, the "exact, and precise design tolerances" of the AR, will be a detriment in THAT sandy environment. my opinion. the AK's out there, aren't under the best maintenance in the world. in fact, i don't even think you could remotely call what the local shepherd does to his weapon "maintenance." US soldiers (at the least, the ones i served with on the line) MAINTAIN their weapons. q-tips, rods, wire bristle brushes, etc...always out and cleaning. from that HIGH maintenance you get highER performance. the AK's don't get that HIGH maintenance, and STILL perform just as lethally, and just as effectively. a fact i can't deny, especially since i observed the phenomena directly.

and now, i suppose in the never-ending battle of AK vs AR we'll each leave it to personal preference. and it's MY personal preference (after watching most of the AR's in my history fail, and watching the poorly maintained AK's succeed) to select the AK as my preferred weapon.

and i'll get that israeli test info out to you people as soon as i get it. I LOVE THESE ARGUMENTS!!!! :-D

 

[zahc]

Its lasted, but a Casio G-shock is designed for abuse

I broke my gshock in 2 months. I have never found a wristwatch I could not destroy.

 

[kaferhaus]

My guess is that the reason you heard about M-16's jamming in Iraq, was due to the fact that SOME of our soldiers did not properly clean

And the ONLY verified instance of this happening was with support troops who are not near as well trained as the combat arms troops are.

These folks often only fire their weapons for annual qualification purposes or sighting in when they're issued a new one..

The "Jessica Lynch story" of them trying to fight back but having equipment problems turned out to be false

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The french design, thats a new one on me what french rifle is the AR based upon?

A French engineer named Rossignol developed the first direct gas impingement system and MAS produced several prototypes of semi-autos using that system in the 20s and 30s.

Erik Eklund of Ljungman AB was the first to develop a production rifle using direct-gas impingement with the Ljungman AG-42.

Personally, I have no problem with the argument that, in general, the AK is more reliable than the AR. I think most of us would agree with that statement. My main issue with this argument is that both rifles have excellent reliability and are more than capable of meeting the reliability needs of most of their users. The AR15 is in widespread international use with groups that have considerable latitude in their choice of weapons. If there were something that was both more reliable and offered everything the AR15 series did, you can bet they would use it.

I also think the "eats where it poops" argument is overblown (besides being a tiresome cliche). There are several instances of ARs running 6k and 7k rounds without malfunction and no cleaning. In most cases the fouling is self-limiting as it is very hard to foul a pathway that is seeing 15,000psi of hot gas shot through it every time the trigger is pulled. In fact, I haven't seen an AR stop functioning solely from fouling as long as you continue to add lube to the system through the ejection port every now and then.

 

[mikemex]

remember that most every time East ran up against West resulted in a victory for the good guys...

I tought the good guys were in the East, trying to convince people that equalty and fraternity are ends by their own.

And no, I am not talking about those communist bastards, but the anarchists who knew that goverments are the main reason why people goes to kill each other...

If Kropotkin could hear this, I am sure that he could say "a good book can accomplish what a million of bullets can't".

Maybe that's why anarchists were extermined: they could guide people out of manipulation.

And if we understand "West" by the same thing, it is definetly not filled up with good guys.

 

[Kaylee]

I tought the good guys were in the East, trying to convince people that equalty and fraternity are ends by their own.

smart-aleccy comment deleted to stay high road and all.

Anyhow, the place for political discussion is over at the Roundtable part of the forum, so more comment on this topic should be directed there. If you want to talk about the superiority of anarchist-produced rifles though, this is the place.


-K